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Inconsistent Cassaulty numbers in the same paragraph
The second paragraph in the introduction includes these two contradictory sentences back to back. Please fix this. I would but the article is locked. Thanks
"The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths.[10][11][12] Estimates of the death toll range between 60,000[13] to 120,000.[2] "
104.246.224.162 (talk) 08:20, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Diversions and pacifications
In the section "Second World War", there is some very obfuscatory language used. "There were acts of diversion" is an evasive way of referring to deadly attacks. "The Polish side responded with pacifications, in which probably several hundred people were killed": This is a misuse of the word "pacification".
These terms are euphemisms for illegal killings, and I propose to delete the subsection "Ukrainian diversion in September 1939". Perhaps someone familiar with the subject-matter could rewrite the subsection using more direct language. MrDemeanour (talk) 09:28, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong cat
Greetings @Piotrus , we can't justify having wrong categories with some other wrongs elsewhere (or here) [1].
Since this article is only editable by established editors, could I ask for the incorporation of the following changes to the text that are more accurate:
Change "The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths." to "The UPA's actions resulted in the death of around 100,000 Poles."
Remove: "The ruling Germans also actively encouraged both Ukrainians and Poles to kill each other." and from section title remove"...and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising".
The first statement is somewhat problematic because though the Germans might have instigated ethnic hatred on a lower level there is no evidence that they directly worked with UPA to organize the massacres, so this statement should not be included in the lead as it suggest the Germans were the co-organizers. Also, the second statement is problematic because UPA only operated in the Kresy region (now Western Ukraine) so this was not a Greater Ukrainian uprising and also its scope was very limited as UPA spent most of its time on attacking Poles and Soviet partisans. So, this is a very questionable claim especially to be used in a section title. 94.172.109.57 (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nihil novi, the problem with (the second half of) this Section title "and the Ukrainian anti-German uprising" is that there is no source which talks about an "Ukrainian anti-German uprising" instead you have texts related to various skirmishes between UPA and German military units, and that UPA's relationship with the German occupiers varied in different times, but no greater Ukrainian anti-German uprising. It's just not there (like with the Slovak National Uprising). Also, UPA was just as much created in order to fight against Poles and the Soviets, however this section titles makes it sound like the primary reason for UPA's creation was anti-German insurgency.
Example from the article of this type claims in Wikipedia:
"In early November 2015, you will find K.e.coffman in “20 July plot,” an article about the failed plan by German officers to assassinate Hitler. A sentence has jumped out at her. It says that some of the conspirators came to see the plot as “a grand, if futile gesture” that would save “the honour of themselves, their families, the army and Germany.” The claim isn’t supported by any sources. It’s conjecture, hearsay. And to her it seems strangely flattering."
Also, the second statement is problematic and should not be in the Lead "the ruling Germans also actively encouraged both Ukrainians and Poles to kill each other." This statement fails an accuracy check, based on what the sources actually say and could be considered as an overstatement. Also, other reliable sources like IPN say this "Thus, the Poles did not seek to create conflict situations." https://volhyniamassacre.eu/zw2/history/178,The-Genocide-on-Poles-Conducted-by-the-OUN-B-and-UPA.html this is why the statement should not be in the lead, as it's out of place, oversimplified, and its conclusion is disputed in academic discourse.
Lastly, regarding this statement "The UPA's actions resulted in up to 100,000 deaths" the number whatever it is, should clearly say "Poles", not "people" as it creates confusion and the reader is left wondering if this is everyone, including Armenians, Jews, Russians, Czechs, Georgians or anti-UPA Ukrainians. Also, the sources already cited say this (source no. 10): "...a hundred thousand Poles perished." This statement needs to clearly say "Poles". --94.172.109.57 (talk) 05:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've entered, into the article, the corrections you suggested.
If I've overlooked anything or made an error, please let me know.
Thanks for your contributions to improving the article.
Have you considered choosing, for use on Wikipedia, a pseudonym, which would facilitate communication with other editors?
User:Nihil novi, I just came across this statement that should also be adjusted "Local UPA commanders in Volhynia, joining the armed uprising against the Germans, began attacking the Polish population, committing massacres in numerous villages." The part "joining the armed uprising against the Germans" should be removed, it just sounds confusing and makes it sound as if the Poles were part of the German occupation. Poor wording in this case, confusing two separate issues. --94.172.109.57 (talk) 09:25, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I had noticed that clause but provisionally held off from deleting it. I've now deleted it. Thanks!
Why not just call the article "Volhynian massacre"
Hi, I would like to propose to rename the article to "Volhynian massacre", since that's what event is known as in Polish and Ukrainian (Rzeź wołyńska; Волинська трагедія). The historical event is commonly known by this name, and refered as such by historians.Artemis Andromeda (talk) 22:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article also covers related massacres in eastern Galicia.
Also, have there been no other massacres in Volhynia, other than of Poles during World War II?
@Nihil novi It's still the WP: Common Name. And yeah, the topic might also include regions outside Volhynia, but that's how the event is known by historians and common people, since Volhynia was the most notable and central location. Common names aren't always the most accurate. Additionally, even if there are others (idk of top of my head), Volhynian massacre in WW2 is still the most known, and as such, would be a dominating name for this specific event, with other potencial events in Volhynian getting a disambiguation name. Artemis Andromeda (talk) 20:38, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks.
The Polish Wikipedia does title its article "Rzeź wołyńska".
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