Jump to content

Talk:Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Primary source flag on biblical narrative section[edit]

@Iskandar323 I see you put a flag on the biblical narrative section. I disagree with your reasoning since I believe a reader would understand the biblical narrative here precisely as if it were a novel. The page somewhat addresses the lack of archeological evidence (although perhaps without enough weight to voices of skeptics), and no secondary sources would exist to "prove" the biblical narrative besides commentary and literary analysis. Still, the biblical narrative remains notable and should be somewhat addressed on this page.

I consider it similar to the Gilgamesh: that page makes no claims that the stories in the epics happened, despite the fact that Gilgamesh may have been a real king in the city of Uruk.

Additionally, there are a few secondary sources in the section. So, I really don't think this particular flag is needed here.

That being said, can you elaborate on your concerns here so that I can make sure I understood them correctly? And, what can be done to address your concerns? too_much curiosity (talk) 14:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That section isn't a simple plot summary based on primary sources. In the second paragraph it reads: "According to the biblical account, the united monarchy was formed by a large popular expression in favour of introducing a king to rule over the decentralised Israelite confederacy." The Bible says not such thing. This is a highly interpretive reckoning of the fables. The section juggles between the literal and the interpretive throughout, later with "Some modern archaeologists ..." This is perhaps the nature of the subject. The 'united monarchy' is a theory borne out of biblical interpretation, so it cannot really be just a plot summary, because there is no single story from the bible that is being discussed. It is a summation of stories from Samuel 1 and 2 and Kings 1, and we really need secondary sources to explain this. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply! I understand your point now. Also, you are absolutely correct that many sentences are highly problematic/interpretive and should be removed quite frankly.
I am curious though, would you prefer replace the juggling between literal and narrative with just narrative (should narrative secondary sources be included)? I happen to strongly believe would is the best approach to making a coherent section on the page. too_much curiosity (talk) 15:41, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ISO code[edit]

There appears to be an ISO 3166 code in the infobox. I haven't found a way to remove it. I don't think they had ISO codes back then. Am I missing something or could/should this be removed from the infobox? Midwood123 (talk) 09:51, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 August 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. In the support column were arguments that the proposed title is the WP:COMMONNAME here. However, the opposers argued that the proposed title is ambiguous and too vague. There were also several alternate proposals raised throughout the course of the RM, though there is no consensus which of them is preferred over the others, or whether any of the opposers support the alternate proposals. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:04, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) → United Monarchy – The subject of this page is a postulated political entity most prevalently referred to in scholarship as the "United Monarchy". This term's prevalence in scholarship is demonstrated in a search of "Kingdom of Israel" and "United Monarchy" together in Google Scholar - which sees "United Monarchy" almost invariably come out on top in the title. Even imagining that "United Monarchy" is not the most prevalent term for the subject, it would still be a naturally disambiguated title, which, per WP:NCDAB, is preferred over a parenthetically disambiguated one (which is unconcise by its nature, as rather effectively exemplified here). "United Kingdom of Israel" is also a frequent term in scholarship, but if we compare the general usage of the two terms, "United Monarchy" comes out clearly on top in Ngrams. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 11:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 19:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 (talk) 00:24, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Necrothesp. 'United Monarchy' could have way more implications other than this. PadFoot2008 (talk) 04:31, 30 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Final relist, in the hope of increasing participation and generating a clear consensus BilledMammal (talk) 19:17, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support WP:COMMONNAME. Emolu (talk) 16:25, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The article was originally called United Monarchy until it was moved in 2009 with edit summary "the article is exclusively about the Kingdom of Israel not arbitrary united monarchies" by an editor with strong (and apparently incorrect) opinions about the Kingdom of Israel. While a search does throw up one or two cases of "united monarchy" referring to some other use case, nearly all refer to this particular instance therefore there is no real confusion for which a hatnote would not suffice if needed.Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 16 October 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. As seen in the prior move discussion just above, some people object to the current title but agreement still can't be reached on a new name. EdJohnston (talk) 02:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy) → United Kingdom of Israel – Following the rejection of the WP:COMMONNAME for this topic, i.e. United Monarchy, at the previous discussion, the next best option is the alternative name sometimes used for the topic - one that also dispenses with the ghastly parenthetical disambiguation, and which, while only a distant runner up to United Monarchy in terms of actual scholarly usage, is also preferable, as a form of natural disambiguation, over the parenthetical disambiguation, per WP:NCDAB. Examples of the scholarly usage can be found here. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:02, 16 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:57, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose The existing title has held tight for almost 20 years (minus the slight interregnum period where it was changed to just “United Monarchy”). There is no prevailing pressure to change this once again outside of a single-editor driven effort here.
That said, “United Kingdom of Israel” is definitely a less clunky title. Would need more editors to chime in here in terms of preference and general consensus on necessity on this proposed move.
Mistamystery (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
NB: the page actually began at the title of "United Monarchy" (following the sources) before being moved to the present title without discussion in 2009 accompanied by a very muddled summary. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:13, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not entirely accurate. Title edits between 2005 and 2009 were varied. (It held for a period as “The United Monarchy (United Kingdom of Israel and Judah or just Kingdom of Israel” Mistamystery (talk) Mistamystery (talk) 19:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about the actual page title, not just what was randomly written in the first sentence regardless of what was present in the page title. Lead changes aren't page moves. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree Plenty of sources use the term, and it's much smoother than the current title. It might have been the same for a while now, but I don't think it would hurt anything to change it. Jacksonmcdonald3425 (talk) 00:59, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as the kingdom’s title was not “United Kingdom of Israel”, but simply “Kingdom of Israel”. Any qualifiers need to be in parentheses as elsewhere on Wikipedia 2600:100F:B096:C0F9:848B:76FC:8601:CC75 (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Palestine in infobox[edit]

From recent edits, I see there's disagreement over the inclusion of Palestine in the "today" section of the infobox. This seems like a reasonable inclusion, since the point is to show what current jurisdictions have land that was once thought to be the Kingdom of Israel (united monarchy). Let me suggest discussing here rather than reverting etc. ProfGray (talk) 11:10, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)&oldid=1216503501"