Talk:Scandinavia

Ahem

Iceland and Finland is NOT Scandinavia! Norway, Sweden and Denmark are! 78.156.8.155 (talk) 07:22, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again! --Surfo (talk) 09:46, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Ahem2

Why are you making fun of people telling you the truth?! I'm from Norway and Norway is, together with Sweden and Denmark SCANDINAVIA! The Nordic countries are SCANDINAVIA + Iceland and Finland! So edit it NOW or be deleted and thrown out! 78.156.8.155 (talk) 16:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

As will be clear from reading the article, and from reading the archives here, there are plenty of reliable sources in English calling all five Nordic countries Scandinavia, just as there are plenty on reliable sources in English defining Scandinavia as just Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. It is exactly because English usage is somewhat inconsistent that the article reflects this situation. Keep in mind that English usage is the only usage that matter on English Wikipedia, so our own definitions in Scandinavian languages (Swedish in my case) really don't matter. Jeppiz (talk) 17:00, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

If the usage is wrong, it’s wrong. In most of Europe, the usage of England and English is synonymous to Britain and British. That doesn’t make it correct. Much in the same way when someone is referring to an US citizen use the term “American”

So it really doesn’t matter if the usage in English often refer to the Nordic countries as “Scandinavia” 87.53.91.170 (talk) 20:23, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. And to correct you: it matters a lot to Wikipedia what English usage is. Jeppiz (talk) 23:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

In most of Europe, the usage of England and English is synonymous to Britain and British. That doesn’t make it correct. That's also fairly common among Americans - but I'm fairly certain that 'European' and US dictionaries don't say English = British. This makes the difference between established usage and common mistake. Many languages adapt or misappropriate 'foreign' words. Pincrete (talk) 07:13, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Ahem3

So you mean that only english people is worth anyhing? You are reportert! 78.156.8.155 (talk) 17:29, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

No, we mean that English-speaking people get to decide what words mean and how they are used in English. Just as French/German/Danish/Swedish etc people get to decide what words mean in THEIR OWN languages and most alter and sometimes mis-appropriate some words. I'd bet any sum you like that you 'misuse' Greek words on a daily basis - including the word 'Greek' itself - which is an invention by other nationalities. Pincrete (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Scandinavia and Nordic is NOT interchangeable or a synonym

I would change this myself but there are so many references in the article that I don’t know which I can delete. Me personally I would delete them All because they are referencing something incorrect. I feel like this page could be more accurate. Not sure why Iceland and Finland are mentioned as Scandinavian when they are not. Altogether super confusing. :( who made those edits? There is a lot that could be improved which is a shame. https://www.tripsavvy.com/difference-between-scandinavian-and-nordic-1626695 Bigbotnot2 (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that there were too many refs in the section Scandinavia#Use of Nordic countries vs. Scandinavia, and I already removed some. By far the best reference currently in the article is Knut Helle's Introduction of the Cambridge History of Scandinavia, Vol.1. It gives a very thorough discussion about the term Scandinavia. Here's the part comparing it with the term 'Nordic'/'Norden':

The term Norden has not so far taken root in English. The tendency has rather been to expand the concept of Scandinavia to include all the communities which conceive of themselves as ‘Nordic’. This has been helped by the fact that these communities, notwithstanding their internal differences, show a common geographical, historical and socio-cultural distinctness from the rest of Europe. [...] The Scandinavia of this title [of the book series], then, stands for what the Scandinavians themselves call Norden/Pohjola/Norðurlond. In the following historical representation the terms Scandinavia and Scandinavian will be used in this wide sense. We find it convenient to use the adjectives ‘Scandinavian’ and ‘Nordic’ more or less synonymously [...]

Its not wrong, its just different from how the Nordic people themselves use the term. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Yeah as a nordic and scandinavian person I found this incorrect from common usage. Could be perhaps noted somewhere as online I see a lot of confusion? Maybe it could be mentioned how Scandinavians and Nordics do it because I know some Icelandic people who don't want to be called Scandinavia and feel pretty strongly about it. Which is understandable knowing the history. I feel, although it may not be factually correct, it is what is taught in those regions and by the people. And to be honest a lot of things are maybe factually incorrect in everyday life but we still use it anyway. I did notice you did change so so thank you for that, it is already looking better :) Bigbotnot2 (talk) 17:52, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

"Local" usage is already included in the article in the use of Nordic countries vs Scandinavia section. TylerBurden (talk) 20:31, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I have reread the page and it doesn’t not specify it. It’s probably there but I cannot see it would you mind showing me which part?

also I am a little confused what this is about “Usage in English is different from usage in the Scandinavian languages themselves (which use Scandinavia in the narrow meaning), and by the fact that the question of whether a country belongs to Scandinavia is politicised.”

Am I able to get a little clarification? What does it mean by narrow meaning? Scandinavians and Nordics alike all agree on who is in Scandinavia and who is in the Nordics. It’s the rest of the world that disagrees. Bigbotnot2 (talk) 21:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

This is the part: The term Scandinavia (sometimes specified in English as Continental Scandinavia or mainland Scandinavia) is ordinarily used locally for Denmark, Norway and Sweden as a subset of the Nordic countries (known in Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish as Norden; Finnish: Pohjoismaat, Icelandic: Norðurlöndin, Faroese: Norðurlond). I already did some work in the article, but will try to fix the rest of that section later today. I'll probably base my edits on the book Contesting Nordicness: From Scandinavianism to the Nordic Brand. (https://library.oapen.org/handle/20.500.12657/52267) Jähmefyysikko (talk) 09:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Can I see the reference for continental Scandinavia and mainland Scandinavia as no one I've seen has used this. From what I can see online continental Scandinavia is about some car tyres and mainland Scandinavia is about the Scandinavian peninsula which of course doesn't include Denmark. That book seems like a solid reference, had a read through Bigbotnot2 (talk) 17:55, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I think it is better to rewrite the section. Here's what I am thinking: my sandbox. That still needs some work on the sourcing. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 18:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

This seems way better than what is there currently. Thank you for working it! Bigbotnot2 (talk) 18:33, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Scandinavian

In the section Different meanings of the term Scandinavian (permalink) there's the following text:

In the ethnic or cultural sense the term Scandinavian traditionally refers to speakers of Scandinavian languages, who are mainly descendants of the peoples historically known as Norsemen, but also to some extent of immigrants and others who have been assimilated into that culture and language. In this sense the term refers primarily to native Danes, Norwegians and Swedes as well as descendants of Scandinavian settlers such as the Icelanders and the Faroese. The term is also used in this ethnic sense, to refer to the modern descendants of the Norse, in studies of linguistics and culture.^{[ WP:REFBOMB ]}

The references give examples of usage, but do not actually discuss the term at any length. There's nothing about immigrants and assimilation. This seems like original research. The next paragraph is bit similar, giving a commentary about short dictionary definitions.

Then there's a paragraph about Sami peoples, specifically about the term 'Scandinavian' being applied to them. I skimmed the first reference, and found no discussion at all about the term 'Scandinavian'. The second reference I cannot fully access, but I suspect the same is true there. At least the snippets in Google Books don't give relevant results for 'Scandinavian'.

To me it seems better to discuss Scandinavia and Scandinavian simultaneously, without devoting a separate section for the adjective. Especially if the section is difficult to source. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 14:45, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the section appears to be largely WP:OR and is anyway fairly muddled. I'm not what, if anything, is rescueable. Pincrete (talk) 08:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The references to the section show that the settlers in Iceland and the Faroe Islands originated from Scandinavia. But they don't show that Iceland and the Faroe Islands are part of Scandinavia. This is similar to suggesting that the USA is part of Europe, because most of the current population has European ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.23.239.207 (talk) 03:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

They are not universally accepted as part of Scandinavia, which the article makes quite clear I would think. TylerBurden (talk) 20:08, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Unhelpful infobox image

The satellite photograph that is the current infobox image is not helpful at all. Even with prior knowledge of the region, it's impossible to distinguish cloud cover from snow to come up with a meaningful understanding of what Scandinavia is from that photo. A map would be much more useful. 38.49.72.163 (talk) 07:01, 13 October 2024 (UTC)