Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography
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Gender identity rules
[edit]I see the following: "Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise."
I do not understand the reason that it holds for any phase of the person's live unless they indicated a preference otherwise. I want wikipedia to be a source of reliable information.
I find it ridiculous when you write about some non binary in wikipedia "Nemo began their interest in music at the age of three"
I think the reader who want to know the facts want to know that everybody considered Nemo as a male at that time and from the value in wikipedia people cannot know the facts when they read wikipedia because of the rules that this holds for any phase of the person's life. אורי בלאס (talk) 05:37, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- @אורי בלאס It also doesn't make sense that the rule is not to mention the deadname if the person wasn't famous as such. But if the article itself is mentioning this person's education or family, it means that part of is famous enough to be in the sources.
- I mention this because the tracking is obstructing when you don't have the deadname.
- The background should be "As [male deadname] she studied in XY, graduated as BC, and published her first books, which were of low notability. Then, after her transition, she became famous". T-man (talk) 09:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Agree. People do not have the right to re-write or censor their own history, even their childhood. In particular the name they were given at birth. Even if they were not notable at the time (hardly anyone is notable in childhood). The facts of their life are what they are and should be reported. Not re-written to match their current (possibly changing) preference a la Winston Smith's job at the Ministry of Truth. Ttulinsky (talk) 06:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Disagree. Wikipedia is not just a source of biographical information. What Wikipedia says about a living person can have a profound impact on that person and their life, as our information is reused in countless other sources and provides input to everything from AI chatbots to Google Knowledge Panels. Thus we should err on the side of respecting the identities of living people when possible. When a person was not notable under a previous name, what harm is there in not mentioning their previous name? Wikipedia is not intended to be the repository of all facts. It's only intended to give a summary of notable information about a person. Nosferattus (talk) 18:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- There is a lot in WP:BLP that helps explain why certain verifiable information can be censored for living people for privacy concerns. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 16:37, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Disagree: There are downsides to the current guidelines but they are preferable to the alternatives. Anywikiuser (talk) 16:12, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
The problem here is really "This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise." It really shouldn't have anything to do with someone's stated preference, which may change at any time, or be reported in conflicting ways, or even attract several varieties of interpretational WP:OR. Rather, we should use something like "unless the majority of current reliable sources do otherwise for a particular time period in the subject's life". This would get around the perpetual sore spot of examples of like sports figures notable as, say, male competitors in men's divisions years before their transition. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
"Consistency"
[edit]I see all over the that bios for celebs who use more than one pronoun are being reduced to one pronoun at the whim of gender police who deem it against Wikipedia's Consistency doctrine. But I don't see anything about using two or three pronouns being inconsistent in that policy. Thoughts? Thanks. Popculturemaven (talk) 19:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- What reason would there be for using different pronouns to refer to the same person in an article? The obvious reason against is confusion to the reader, but I am not seeing any countervailing reason that would not be addressed by a sentence or note mentioning the article subject's preference for various terms. – notwally (talk) 21:19, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
Discussion on short-version of names
[edit]See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Short-versions of names in intro. This is for pages such as Tani Oluwaseyi and Ayo Akinola. Should the opening read as "Tanitoluwa Oluwaseyi is a ......" or "Tanitoluwa "Tani" Oluwaseyi is a ....." RedPatch (talk) 18:47, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would suggest: “Taniyoluwa Oluwaseyi (known as Tani) is a …” Blueboar (talk) 20:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- Or
Taniyoluwa (Tani) Oluwaseyi
. Short forms of names do not take quotation marks, as they are not nicknames like "Killer" or "Rochester Rocket" or "Babyface". There's a whole section about this as MOS:BIO, and the short answer is there isn't only one single mandatory way to write such opening sentences, as long as they make sense to the reader. We do not need to explain common-in-English short forms; e.g., an article titled "Liz McCulough" might begin with the full name "Elizabeth Jane McCulough" and no mention of "Liz" in the lead sentence, it already being understood by nearly all our readers that "Liz" is an everyday short form of "Elizabeth". This is not the case with short forms of names not common in English, as in the examples this opened with, or in the case of Russian Dima for Dmitri. Nor for unusual shortenings in English, like Reba for Rebecca or Nifer for Jennifer. In cases like that, they should be provided either parenthetically within the name or given in a "best known as" sort of statement after the birth name (or vice versa; there's nothing wrong withLiz McCulough, born Elizabeth Jane McCulough
). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)- A reader will be able to equally undertand Tani as a shortening of Tanitoluwa as they will Liz as a shortening of Elizabeth. I wouldn't be surprised if most readers found the former more obvious, as it doesn't rely on assumed familiarity with a specific cultural tradition. MOS:HYPOCORISM should be updated to reflect that where the short form is just the beginning of the longer name, the connection is obvious and does not need to be explained.--Trystan (talk) 14:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Disagree completely, non-English and non-standard nicknames should always be laid out in the first sentence as the policy states now, even if you can infer them at a glance. Ortizesp (talk) 13:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- What would the reasoning be behind treating obvious short forms for culturally English names different to obvious short forms for non-English names? I think the intent behind HYPOCORISM must be to avoid belabouring the obvious, but as drafted it doesn't take into account that many short forms are obvious despite not stemming from names historically popular in England.--Trystan (talk) 14:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- Disagree completely, non-English and non-standard nicknames should always be laid out in the first sentence as the policy states now, even if you can infer them at a glance. Ortizesp (talk) 13:57, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- A reader will be able to equally undertand Tani as a shortening of Tanitoluwa as they will Liz as a shortening of Elizabeth. I wouldn't be surprised if most readers found the former more obvious, as it doesn't rely on assumed familiarity with a specific cultural tradition. MOS:HYPOCORISM should be updated to reflect that where the short form is just the beginning of the longer name, the connection is obvious and does not need to be explained.--Trystan (talk) 14:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- Or
- Can I suggest the conversation continues on the original page and doesn't split into two separate discussions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think here is the more appropriate place, as it is really a general question about MOS:HYPOCORISM. Not sure if it would be appropriate to move that discussion here at this point?--Trystan (talk) 14:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- That would also be fine, but just not in two separate places. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- The discussion at the other location widely seemed to agree that such short-forms are fairly common sense given the article title and putting a short-form in brackets is redundant. RedPatch (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- That would also be fine, but just not in two separate places. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:54, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think here is the more appropriate place, as it is really a general question about MOS:HYPOCORISM. Not sure if it would be appropriate to move that discussion here at this point?--Trystan (talk) 14:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
Sir and Dame in the name line of Infobox person
[edit]I proposed changing MOS:SIR so that "Sir" or "Dame" may be placed before the subject's full name in the name parameter in Template:Infobox person, Template:Infobox officeholder, etc. I bit my tongue for years seeing the title delegated to the honorific_prefix parameter, treated the same as styles such as His Excellency and The Right Honourable, when these are just that, styles, not titles. The Right Honourable is only used when referring to a subject in the third person, whereas Sir before the given name is used in conversation. "Sir" or "Dame" is put bolded before the name in the first line of the article, so why not in the infobox? On a purely aesthetic note, it is also much more pleasing to the eye, but perhaps that's just me.
Featured articles such John A. Macdonald, Thomas White and Hugh Beadle, not to mentioned the incumbent British prime minister Keir Starmer have recently moved Sir to prefix the name in the name parameter, but when I began making the change on other articles, I was accused of vandalism and treated with a block. So here I am seeking consensus. Walco1 (talk) 13:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. It seems consistent with similar situations to implement this as policy. I may not be phrasing this very well, but titles that seem to almost become part of the name - like Lord or Prince (see Rowan Williams and Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh for examples) - elsewhere go right before the name, not up in the top with "The Right Hon." or "The Reverend". To me, "Sir" seems far more like it's in the same category as Lord or Prince than as "His Excellency". Katechon08 (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly agree. First, because MOS:SIR already says that "The title is placed in bold in the first use of the name" and our invariable practice has been to put it in bold, along with the other parts of the name, in the first in-text mention, and there is no reason the same practice is not followed in infoboxes.
- Secondly, because no other work of reference places "Sir" with titles such as "Excellency" in a line before the first name of the person, a practice which looks goofy and unprofessional.
- Thirdly, because "Sir" with the rest of the name was standard across Wikipedia until one or two editors mass-edited thousands of articles to change its placement circa 2022, and subsequently used this fait accompli to argue in favour of their position (all of this is well-documented across extensive discussions; and it is ironic OP has been flagged for disruptive editing when he is merely trying to undo other people's disruptive editing).
- And lastly (I have other points because I am going to stop here) because "Sir" in accepted usage goes with the first name (so "Sir Winston", "Sir Alec") which is not true for the pre-nominal titles such as "Excellency"). This particular topic has been litigated extensively here and elsewhere for years and no one has yet advanced a convincing argument for placing "Sir" in the prefix field. Atchom (talk) 14:36, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Because it is a prefix, not a part of the person's name? That's how every other title works; the fact that "Sir" involves a silly ritual with a sword instead of a silly ritual with a laying on of hands or a silly ritual with a cap and gown seems irrelevant to me. --JBL (talk) 18:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- A knighthood is not comparable to an academic degree. Walco1 (talk) 18:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why not? Gawaon (talk) 18:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Anyone can obtain a doctorate degree and style themselves as doctor, a knighthood is a state recognition for meritorious service. Even the present guidelines on the infobox recognize this, stating that the honorific prefix parameter "is for honorifics of serious significance that are attached to the name in formal address, such as knighthoods, 'The Honourable', and 'His/Her Excellency'; do not use it for routine things like 'Dr.' or 'Ms.'" Walco1 (talk) 18:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really get it. Both aware awarded by the state, both are not easy to get, both are merit-based, both are used in formal contexts etc. To me the similarities look certainly much bigger than the differences, meaning that an equivalent treatment would make a lot of sense. Gawaon (talk) 18:48, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Degrees are awarded by universities, knighthoods by the state. "In the UK, approximately 2% of people have a PhD"[1] compared to only 21 KGs, 16 KTs, 50 GBCs, etc., etc. I am not implying a doctorate is easy to come by, it is just widely considered less significant than a knighthood. The "equivalent treatment" here would either be include Dr. in the infobox or not include Sir, neither of which is not what is being advocated for here. Walco1 (talk) 18:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Whether my doctorate was easy or hard to get seems to me irrelevant to the question of whether the title "Dr." is part of my name (it's not). It's very hard to become the pope, but all our articles on individual popes seem to correctly understand that "Pope" is a prefix. --JBL (talk) 21:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, the discussion of doctors is irrelevant to the question at hand. Popes are not knights. Walco1 (talk) 21:51, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Astonishing. --JBL (talk) 00:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree, the discussion of doctors is irrelevant to the question at hand. Popes are not knights. Walco1 (talk) 21:51, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Whether my doctorate was easy or hard to get seems to me irrelevant to the question of whether the title "Dr." is part of my name (it's not). It's very hard to become the pope, but all our articles on individual popes seem to correctly understand that "Pope" is a prefix. --JBL (talk) 21:07, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Degrees are awarded by universities, knighthoods by the state. "In the UK, approximately 2% of people have a PhD"[1] compared to only 21 KGs, 16 KTs, 50 GBCs, etc., etc. I am not implying a doctorate is easy to come by, it is just widely considered less significant than a knighthood. The "equivalent treatment" here would either be include Dr. in the infobox or not include Sir, neither of which is not what is being advocated for here. Walco1 (talk) 18:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't really get it. Both aware awarded by the state, both are not easy to get, both are merit-based, both are used in formal contexts etc. To me the similarities look certainly much bigger than the differences, meaning that an equivalent treatment would make a lot of sense. Gawaon (talk) 18:48, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Anyone can obtain a doctorate degree and style themselves as doctor, a knighthood is a state recognition for meritorious service. Even the present guidelines on the infobox recognize this, stating that the honorific prefix parameter "is for honorifics of serious significance that are attached to the name in formal address, such as knighthoods, 'The Honourable', and 'His/Her Excellency'; do not use it for routine things like 'Dr.' or 'Ms.'" Walco1 (talk) 18:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why not? Gawaon (talk) 18:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- A knighthood is not comparable to an academic degree. Walco1 (talk) 18:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Because it is a prefix, not a part of the person's name? That's how every other title works; the fact that "Sir" involves a silly ritual with a sword instead of a silly ritual with a laying on of hands or a silly ritual with a cap and gown seems irrelevant to me. --JBL (talk) 18:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
What myself and other users and trying to articulate that yes, "Sir" and "Dame" are prefixes, but it is not like other prefixes such as His/Her Excellency and The Right Honourable and should not be treated as much. It is not black and white and the policy should not treat it as such for all the reasons stated above. Walco1 (talk) 18:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think we should include titles in infoboxes with the names. The simple fact is it is not the person's name. It is already included elsewhere in the article, and so what benefit is added by putting it in the infobox as part of the name? Also, this seems to be prioritizing a British ritual over other titles. – notwally (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- strongly oppose - this is against the spirit of our honorifics policy, and privileges one narrow category of title above others. "Sir Whooptidoo" and "Dame Bigdeal" were born as naked squalling infants, and ate, drank and excreted like thee or me. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:53, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's a political objection against the existence of titles, not a policy-based argument. Atchom (talk) 13:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, it's an argument against giving some honorifics more weight than others. Gawaon (talk) 14:21, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you're gonna beat up on me ad hominem, Atchom , get the details right. I am a Quaker and have a long heritage of disdain for honorifics behind me. But my argument is based on policy, not on my faith or my politics. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- ""Sir Whooptidoo" and "Dame Bigdeal" were born as naked squalling infants, and ate, drank and excreted like thee or me." Oh yes, very policy-based and not political at all. Atchom (talk) 13:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Because no Quaker has ever accepted a knighthood, have they? Oh no! So what being a Quaker has to do with disliking honours I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- You misunderstand me, Necro; we traditionally refuse the use of honorifics (not the honors themselves). Why should we say "Your Majesty" to somebody who is not necessarily majestic, "His Grace" of somebody who may be graceless, etc.? Mr., Miss, Mrs. are all forms of "master" and "mistress", and I call no man "master". --Orange Mike | Talk 15:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- I should point out that Sir Ben Kingsley appears to be rather infamous for insisting on the use of his title! So this is clearly not universal. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:27, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- You misunderstand me, Necro; we traditionally refuse the use of honorifics (not the honors themselves). Why should we say "Your Majesty" to somebody who is not necessarily majestic, "His Grace" of somebody who may be graceless, etc.? Mr., Miss, Mrs. are all forms of "master" and "mistress", and I call no man "master". --Orange Mike | Talk 15:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's a political objection against the existence of titles, not a policy-based argument. Atchom (talk) 13:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- comment - Long discussion at Template talk:Infobox person here, informal RfC here. Adding "Sir" to the name line seems to have been generally opposed and it does not look like there has been any change in consensus. IMHO, (i.e. I actually don't have a dog in this fight) this should be settled at Template talk:Infobox person, its the actual "decision switch" where the honorifics get sorted and displayed.There should not be mass changes across Wikipedia to push one version or the other. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 20:13, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- There were a few editors who had very strong feelings against Sir in the Name field. One made thousands of edits over time to establish a fait accompli and was called out for it. Another was blocked for doing sockpuppetry on point. A lot of the arguments against are also not policy-based but are based on a general dislike of titles (indeed there are several here). Atchom (talk) 13:57, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
Comment it forms part of the name in the lead. Walco1 (talk) 21:51, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- The title is not part of the actual name, it's a prefix, as you already stated above. Also, you appear to be making a majority of the comments here. Try not to WP:BLUDGEON the discussion. – notwally (talk) 21:57, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support in principle. I used to think otherwise (mainly along the lines that "Sir" isn't really a name), and still don't believe the argument for either side is particularly clear-cut, but I do think now that, on balance, "Sir" (and "Dame") should be in
|name=
rather than|honorific_prefix=
. A few thoughts:- Stylistically, it looks a bit awkward to write e.g. "The Right Honourable Sir" in
|honorific_prefix=
, which could give the false impression that it's a single honorific, so splitting it over the two parameters would help. It would also correspond to the cadence of natural language: for instance, if you listen to Lindsay Hoyle (Speaker of the Commons) calling members to speak in Parliament, he says "The Right Honourable, Sir Keir Starmer" instead of "The Right Honourable Sir, Keir Starmer". - I note that MOS:SIR does not explicitly specify where in the infobox it should go, so under the current reading it could go in either parameter. But, as pointed out above, "Sir" is already consistently bolded in the lead, so it makes sense that the infobox could mimic this use by putting it in
|name=
. - Some of the previous discussions touched on knighthoods/damehoods being "name-changing" honours – i.e. it changes the recipient's name, in a way, and manifests itself by the fact that knights/dames are customarily referred to as "Sir Ian" or "Dame Judi" (although we do not use this convention on Wikipedia). So I argue that it is not technically wrong to treat "Sir"/"Dame" as part of the name. In addition, although not entirely analogous, all peers with biographical infoboxes already have "The Lord/Lady/Baroness/etc. Smith" in
|name=
. If we're content to go that far with our treatment of forms of address, perhaps adding titles of knighthood shouldn't be too controversial in comparison.
- Stylistically, it looks a bit awkward to write e.g. "The Right Honourable Sir" in
- Given that I don't think MOS:SIR actually says anything about where to put "Sir", however, I see the question here as whether any change should be made to the MOS to standardize the practice across the encyclopedia. I wouldn't be opposed to doing so, but equally I agree with Fountains of Bryn Mawr that Template:Infobox person is probably the better place to put the guideline. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 22:33, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose the proposal: the line "name" should be used for names, the line "honorific_prefix" should be used for honorific prefices, and "Sir" is an honorific prefix, not part of a person's name. The attempts to argue otherwise above are striking in their incoherence and lack of any identifiable logical structure beyond bare assertion. --JBL (talk) 00:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose, concur that fact that the title "Sir" is an honorific not part of an individual's name and as such should be dealt with as such. No different to Admiral or Field Marshall or even "Hon.". Potentially the thin end of a wedge into the future. Dan arndt (talk) 00:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as above and per OrangeMike in particular - name is for names only, Sir is a honorific and goes in the honorific prefix line. GiantSnowman 10:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose the proposal: this kind of privileging of one type of title above others is unjustifiable. --Omnipaedista (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose per Omnipaedista, Orangemike and others. Wikipedia is committed to neutrality, hence we must not privilege some country-specific honorifics over others. Let them all be treated equally. Gawaon (talk) 15:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Completely agree. The alternative looks utterly ludicrous. Some anti-title editors have been pushing this for years. It's bolded in the first line of the article for a reason. Nobody is privileging anything over anything. When someone is knighted they are forever after Sir John (or whatever). The title has effectively become part of their name (no bickering about legalities, please; effectively it is the case). It is not in the same category as "The Honourable" or "Dr" or "Professor" or "General" or whatever, which is why we bold Sir/Dame in the first line and do not even include most others. It's not "the thin end of the wedge" because this has been the convention for years and nobody has argued with any support that any other honorifics should be treated this way. NPOV arguments are clearly ludicrous, since titles are a fact; they just show anti-title POV. We all know that most countries do not use them, but for the UK and other Commonwealth countries that retain them they are a fact of life and should not be relegated because other countries (and some of their citizens) don't approve of them. That is the clear POV here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's striking how many of the comments here are not policy-based but are explicitly based on a particular political view. Atchom (talk) 13:21, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Precisely. Too many "I don't like titles so we shouldn't emphasise them despite the fact they are emphasised in their country of origin" POV statements. With the laughable claim that using titles somehow conflicts with NPOV. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- And, frankly, it beggars belief that Walco1 was accused of vandalism and threatened with a block for these edits. Experienced editors (and administrators) really should know better. It is most certainly not vandalism, the threat needs to be retracted and an apology issued. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seconded, particularly as he was merely reversing a mass-edit campaign which was disruptive. Atchom (talk) 13:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- And, frankly, it beggars belief that Walco1 was accused of vandalism and threatened with a block for these edits. Experienced editors (and administrators) really should know better. It is most certainly not vandalism, the threat needs to be retracted and an apology issued. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:53, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Precisely. Too many "I don't like titles so we shouldn't emphasise them despite the fact they are emphasised in their country of origin" POV statements. With the laughable claim that using titles somehow conflicts with NPOV. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's striking how many of the comments here are not policy-based but are explicitly based on a particular political view. Atchom (talk) 13:21, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with the proposal and with Necrothesp above. Comments referring to things like "a silly ritual with a sword" reveal the anti-titles bias behind a lot of this. As has been said above, these titles just are treated differently in real life from things like "Dr" and "The Right Honourable", regardless of how Wikipedians think they should be treated. No one is going around referring to "the Right Honourable Rishi Sunak" except in the most formal of contexts, but "Sir Keir Starmer" is what he is called on a regular basis. (Random example: the current lead story in the "Politics" section of the BBC News website.) We record how things operate in the real world, not how we think they should work according to our prejudices and biases. Proteus (Talk) 14:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Anti-titles bias" what does that even mean? I have a title, I am quite proud of it, I get miffed if people don't use it in the appropriate context; but it's not part of my name. What this seems to actually be about is British monarchists making fools of themselves, as they are wont to do. Everyone everywhere in the world calls the man Pope Francis (unlike, say, Kier Starmer, who does not get "Sir"'d outside of the UK) but no one thinks "Pope" is part of his name because that would be ridiculous. --JBL (talk) 19:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Anti-titles bias" what does that even mean? You're clearly being facetious rather than trying to engage in debate, but taking your question at face value, it's people who don't approve of traditional monarchic practices (like knighting people and giving them peerages) trying to impose their views on the rest of the world by treating such practices with contempt and ridiculing those who don't (by making such comments as "British monarchists making fools of themselves, as they are wont to do"). We get it - you don't think he should be called "Sir Keir Starmer". That's absolutely fine - you can think what you want. But WP reflects reality, and reality is that that is what he is called, regardless of your personal views.
- unlike, say, Kier Starmer, who does not get "Sir"'d outside of the UK If it's a country-specific issue we're talking about here, then surely the practices of the country he lives in are what matters? But your assertion isn't even true - another random example is this press release from yesterday where the US State Department calls him "Sir Keir Starmer". (Note not "The Right Honourable Sir Keir Starmer", highlighting the distinction I pointed out between "The Right Honourable" and "Sir".) Proteus (Talk) 13:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Interestingly, the BBC style guide notes that "Starmer, Keir prefers not to be called 'Sir Keir'." Gawaon (talk) 14:31, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is nothing in any of your comments that appears to address the subject of this discussion. I get it, you're a monarchist, you feel very deeply in the preservation of feudalistic traditions for determining which people are inferior to which other people; millions of Britons seem to share these views, and I would not dream of asking you to change them. But they have nothing at all to do with the question under consideration here. --JBL (talk) 19:33, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Anti-titles bias" what does that even mean? I have a title, I am quite proud of it, I get miffed if people don't use it in the appropriate context; but it's not part of my name. What this seems to actually be about is British monarchists making fools of themselves, as they are wont to do. Everyone everywhere in the world calls the man Pope Francis (unlike, say, Kier Starmer, who does not get "Sir"'d outside of the UK) but no one thinks "Pope" is part of his name because that would be ridiculous. --JBL (talk) 19:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose OrangeMike, JBL, and Omnipaedista have astutely laid out the reasons why this silly suggestion ought not to be implemented. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose The award of an honour doesn't change a person's forename(s); the recipient may use their pre-nominal title – though
A clergyman of the Church of England does not use the prefix 'Sir' before his name
(Debrett's) – and encourage or insist on its use by others, but their first name remains the same. Elton John's first name remains Elton and Judi Dench's first name is not Dame. NebY (talk) 16:12, 22 July 2024 (UTC)- And Marshall Mathers' name is not Eminem, but that's still what we put in the name field of the infobox! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Elton John:
- | honorific-prefix = [[Knight Bachelor|Sir]]<!--Not an OVERLINK violation when link is piped-->
- | name = Elton John
- | honorific_suffix = {{postnominals|country=GBR|size=100%|CH|CBE}} NebY (talk) 14:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes but that's for completely unrelated reasons; Elton John is not a pseudonym. --JBL (talk) 19:41, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- And Marshall Mathers' name is not Eminem, but that's still what we put in the name field of the infobox! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support Knightoods/Damehoods awarded by Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom (and wider Commonwealth realms) are name changing titles[2] and used widely in those countries as well as in common use as such. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 20:15, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- In my experience they are used the same was as 'Lord' etc is - and I note nobody is proposing to try and include that as a 'name'... GiantSnowman 20:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why would anyone propose what is already practice on WP? See Patrick Vallance, where his title as a Baron is appropriately used in both the lead and infobox, also note that as his name has now altered to that of a Baron, the Sir has been removed appropriately. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 22:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? Peers always have their titles as names in infobox. Atchom (talk) 13:48, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- For the record, the reference cited by Nford24 as evidence for "name changing titles" says: "If public support for the honours system is to be maintained over the long term, it needs to have a clearer, simpler structure ... Name-changing honours are especially baffling, and carry connotations of social divisiveness. Simon Jenkins and Peter Harper were among those distinguished people who were delighted with the recognition of a knighthood but unhappy at using the title; a number of members of the House of Lords exhibit a similar sort of discomfort and avoid using their titles. Increasingly, titles appear to be an embarrassment rather than a cause for celebration. As we have noted, many other Commonwealth countries have abandoned knighthoods and other name-changing titles, without damaging their public life in any noticeable way." So it's not exactly an uncritical endorsement and, despite using the phrase "name-changing honours" once then immediately goes on to talk about "titles" which may or may not be used. Gawaon (talk) 05:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- You’ve also specifically cut out the part where it discusses knighthoods. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 09:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I did cut the sentence "We found that few people have any grasp of the difference between a CB and a CBE, or why some people become GBEs, some KBEs and some are simply Knights Bachelor", which seemed less relevant, though I can wholeheartedly agree with it. (I too don't have the slightest idea what the difference might be, or why anyone would care.) Gawaon (talk) 10:32, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- “I too don't have the slightest idea what the difference might be, or why anyone would care.” Yet that very subject is why we’re all here taking about the correct placement of ‘Sir/Dame’ with the name on the name line. My reference demonstrates that people don’t know or understand the subject matter an any great extent and you’ve just reinforced. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 04:29, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- And that is precisely why those of us who do know the difference add them to articles. Because this is an encyclopaedia and encyclopaedias impart knowledge. Admitting your ignorance and appearing to be proud of it hardly strengthens your arguments in a debate relating to an encyclopaedia! -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I did cut the sentence "We found that few people have any grasp of the difference between a CB and a CBE, or why some people become GBEs, some KBEs and some are simply Knights Bachelor", which seemed less relevant, though I can wholeheartedly agree with it. (I too don't have the slightest idea what the difference might be, or why anyone would care.) Gawaon (talk) 10:32, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Simon Jenkins and Peter Harper were among those distinguished people who were delighted with the recognition of a knighthood but unhappy at using the title; a number of members of the House of Lords exhibit a similar sort of discomfort and avoid using their titles. Increasingly, titles appear to be an embarrassment rather than a cause for celebration.
What utter cherrypicking. So, because a couple of people don't like titles and shout about it, that by extension means that they're increasingly an embarrassment? What complete drivel. What about the vast majority of people who proudly accept their titles without braying about it? I should mention (if it's necessary to do so) that it's extremely bad form to emphasise that you have any sort of title or honorific, so not using them is actually polite (just as it's rude to sign yourself as "Mr John Smith" or "Dr John Smith" rather than simple "John Smith"). That doesn't mean you're embarrassed by them. It just means you know what good manners are. Which I should hope most recipients of a title do. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- You’ve also specifically cut out the part where it discusses knighthoods. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 09:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- In my experience they are used the same was as 'Lord' etc is - and I note nobody is proposing to try and include that as a 'name'... GiantSnowman 20:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose This would conflate hono(u)rifics and names; the idea of "anti-title POV" is without logical foundation. XOR'easter (talk) 03:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- "Honorifics" is spelt the same way everywhere! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ "The Significance of the UK PhD". LinkedIn. Retrieved 20 July 2024.
- ^ "Select Committee on Public Administration Fifth Report". House of Commons Public Administration Committee. Retrieved 22 July 2024.
Nationality
[edit]Could someone provide some clarification on MOS:NATIONALITY? There is currently an ongoing RfC at Talk:Nina Dobrev, and according to the guidelines, she should be described as both Canadian and Bulgarian since she was a citizen of both countries when she became notable. Some editors, however, have argued that if she didn't gain her notability in Bulgaria, her Bulgarian nationality should be omitted.
The guidelines mention that the context for the person's notability includes the nationalities they had at the time they became notable, but no relevant examples for cases like Dobrev's (e.g. Pedro Pascal and Kim Cattrall) are given afterwards which allows room for various interpretations of the section's first sentence. --Coconutyou3 (talk) 13:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
RfC: The position of "retired" and "former" in the first sentence of biographical articles
[edit]There are two questions:
- Should guidance be added to the Manual of Style regarding the position of "retired" and "former" in the first sentence of biographical articles?
- If guidance is to be added, which form should be recommended?
A. X is an American retired actor.
B. X is a retired American actor.
Khiikiat (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- C - Neither Not everything needs to be mentioned in the opening sentence. I would omit the word “retired” from the first sentence (so: “X is an American actor”) and mention the retirement in a subsequent sentence later in the first paragraph. Blueboar (talk) 12:02, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- No and Neither: the order of adjectives in English is not something that we ought to be prescribing in the MOS, it's a matter of grammar. Option B is the standard order, whereas option A sounds distinctly odd to this native speaker. As to whether "retired" or "former" should be in the opening sentence, I would say no as a general rule – though there are no doubt exceptional cases where "former"/"retired" is actually a defining characteristic, such as for a person currently notable in one field and formerly notable in a totally different capacity. Rosbif73 (talk) 13:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Previous discussion on same question here (2022). Schazjmd (talk) 13:35, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Option A is generally wrong: A proper adjective (e.g. 'American') goes closest to the noun, except for qualifier/purpose adjectives. Sample ref: Adjective Word Order at Study.com. Nurg (talk) 00:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- No to question 1 (too specialized), so question 2 is irrelevant. Gawaon (talk) 06:23, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- No. In general I would avoid "retired" or "former" in the opening sentence. If someone is notable for being an actor then that's what the first sentence should say. If they haven't acted for a while, that can be explained in more detail later. On those occasions when "former" is needed (such as someone being notable for having left a situation, such as former political prisoner) and the word former is leading to possible ambiguity, it should always be possible to remove the ambiguity without making it harder to read, e.g. Jerry Lukiiko Ekandjo is a Namibian politician, former anti-apartheid activist and political prisoner, not Jerry Lukiiko Ekandjo is a former Namibian anti-apartheid activist or Jerry Lukiiko Ekandjo is a Namibian former anti-apartheid activist. Mgp28 (talk) 08:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- No And, like a few others here, I think the use of either adjective in the opening should be avoided unless being retired/former is a key component of understanding the subject. CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 09:30, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- No and neither. MOS is not a guide to English grammar like others pointed above. The hyper-specific guidance leans into WP:CREEP territory. Ca talk to me! 02:35, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- Almost never "former American" as former is a unique adjective in that it modifies the following word, implying that they are no longer an American ("The Secret Rules of Adjective Order". Slate). That would only be appropriate in rare cases like Wayne Brabender, who renounced his citizenship.—Bagumba (talk) 02:58, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- B If appropriate, "retired" may be used instead of "former", this should be noted in the MOS. Per Nurg, A is grammatically incorrect, and per Bagumba, "former American actor" is wrong. LK (talk) 12:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, the key is "if appropriate". Retired is sometimes misleading, e.g. athletes who retire from playing in their 30s or 40s, but still work in other fields until their 60s or later. Or former child actors. —Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- No. The MOS doesn't need to try and determine every individual thing. Some things need to be decided on a case-by-case basis; and I don't think the argument has been convincingly made that this is a situation where one framing makes a better default than the other or where uniformity would benefit the wiki. --Aquillion (talk) 16:47, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- A is the only correct answer - a professional does not retire from their nationality, only their profession. Therefore bios should say 'American former/retired actor' and NOT 'former/retired American actor'. GiantSnowman 16:51, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Profesional English is illogical, and attempting to right it would needlessly and substantively degrade our reputation. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- No, neither and C using retired in this way is best avoided. You can always add "who retired in..." or similar. Johnbod (talk) 16:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- Why say in 1 word what you can say in 10, eh! GiantSnowman 17:01, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- No and Neither I feel this isn't something the MOS needs to specify - nor do I see much reasoning for why we should. PhotogenicScientist (talk) 16:57, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
- ¬ ,¬ ∨ . This seems like a SNOW close. Also, this issue has been raised independently at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#Use of "former" to describe occupations. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Non-bold formatting of quotation marks in lead
[edit]Where in the MoS does it address the proper formatting of names that include quotation marks, such as Clarence Charles "Ducky" Nash?
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the name is properly formatted as Clarence Charles "Ducky" Nash (as opposed to Clarence Charles "Ducky" Nash)
I've just had someone revert an edit I made to B. J. McLeod, calling it improper. I had changed the formatting to resemble the first example, and the editor returned it to the second.
If, indeed, I was correct, I'd like to point this person in the right direction, but I can't seem to find the guideline one way or the other.
Thanks! 1980fast (talk) 22:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- MOS:BOLDQUOTE ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! 1980fast (talk) 00:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Arabic names
[edit]I think we need to amend the MOS:FULLNAME section relating to Arabic names that cites the example of Muammar Gaddafi. Contrary to names in most other countries, Arabic names do not include middle names, but rather a chain of names. While although Muammar Muhammad Abu Minyar al-Gaddafi would have had this name on his government documents, it is not really their name per se; Muhammad would be his father, and Abu Minyar would be his paternal grandfather. It is good to see that MOS:FULLNAME was aware of this and recommends avoiding the mention of the full Arabic name in the opening sentence, but it still nevertheless seems to encourage its inclusion in the very next sentence in the opening paragraph. I think this is still redundant and it should be amended to recommend its inclusion only in the body, or also in the lede as a footnote. Arabic biographies are being cluttered with these redundant full names so this amendment important in my opinion. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:24, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
"ASC"
[edit]Has anyone ever noticed that many cinematographer biographies include "ASC" after the name in the lead? Some even have it written out in full, like Michael Chapman (cinematographer). On some articles like Robert Elswit, it's even included as "title" in infobox. Was there ever any reason given for why this is? I did a search here, and it was seemingly only mentioned once in an unrelated discussion, with the person expressing confusion as to why it's in so many articles.
I don't really get it myself. Major cinematographers who have worked in the US are not in ASC are very rare, so I wouldn't think it's such a noteworthy "achievement" it is worth noting immediately. Not to mention, it is not an honor, and the criteria for being in ASC is not particularly stringent. It just means you are/were part of a club of cinematographers. Yes, "cinematography by (name) ASC" is a common credit, but so is "produced by (name) PGA", and I don't see uses of Producers Guild postnom in articles.
--Quiz shows 05:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
- I ran into this the other day for a similar edit. MOS:POSTNOM seems to say to exclude for professional honors from the lead:
—Bagumba (talk) 08:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)The lead sentence should be concise: Academic (including honorary) degrees and professional qualifications may be mentioned in the article, along with the above, but should be omitted from the lead ...
Gender identity: removing "waiter/waitress/server"
[edit]@GnocchiFan and David Eppstein: I'm not in the interest of edit warring on a high-profile guideline, so I won't revert twice, but I would encourage David to self-revert back to the status quo, at least until a proper consensus develops.
Obviously, language is evolving to ungender many nouns, and there are many where traditionally male forms are now acceptable for all people. And of course we shouldn't go out of our way to use archaic, uncommon, or invented forms e.g. firewoman, doctoress when the gender-neutral firefighter and doctor exist and are widely accepted.
If a (traditionally) gendered term for an occupation exists, which we (or sources) would normally use for a cis person in that profession, then I think it's generally preferable that articles should insistently use those terms when describing binary trans people, and try to avoid them when describing non-binary people. This prescription circumvents an... unfortunate trend where speakers (unconsciously or maliciously) use ungendered language specifically for trans men and women, while gendering our cis counterparts.
In this specific case I think referring to a trans woman as either a "server" or a "waitress" is fine. It's possible that a better example exists. But given the choice we should consistently refer to trans women film performers as actresses rather than actors. Even though that term is slowly coming to be understood as gender-neutral, it is traditionally male-specific. –RoxySaunders 🏳️⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 20:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I, for one, in my personal dialect, would use "waiter" for all people who serve food at sit-down restaurants, firefighter for all people whose job it is to fight fires, etc., regardless of gender. To me "waiter" is as gender-free as "doctor" and "firefighter". I don't want to be forced into using gendered noun forms for random subjects merely because those subjects prefer to use gendered pronouns, when I would normally use those nouns in a gender-free way. That is, I think we should act like your expressed sentiment above: "
And we obviously should not bend out of our way to use archaic, uncommon, or invented forms e.g. firewoman, doctoress when the gender-neutral firefighter and doctor exist and are widely accepted
." But I think that the example of requiring "waiter" for people who identify male, requiring "waitress" for people who identify as female, and forbidding both terms for people who identify in other ways, as the disputed MOS language does, is exactly counter to that sentiment. - If the intended meaning is that when using gendered forms we should use the gendered form that matches the gender identify of the subject, then of course we should. For instance we should not use "waitress" for someone who does not identify as female, obviously. But if that is the intended meaning then it did not come across. If so, we should replace the disputed passage with something that conveys that intent more clearly. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I like DE's new version. I was ok with the status quo ante. I see this section used very frequently to deal with garden-variety transphobia, and I've never encountered a dispute over good-faith use of "waitress" vs. "server", or an analogue. I'm sure it happens occasionally. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- I put the previous wording in while partly rewriting the section after the neopronouns RfC, to emphasize the scope of "gendered terms". I think this change still accomplishes that, so no objection here. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 23:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! I'd like to say that no malice was intended with my edit. David Eppstein expressed my concerns with the previous wording much better than I could myself, and I much prefer the current version. Thank you everyone for keeping it civil, as I know this is a very contentious topic area. GnocchiFan (talk) 12:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)