Talk:Wallace Fard Muhammad

Efforts to trace Fard's history

This article tries to create a mystery around his "disappearance". He was simply deported, or fled America to Fiji to avoid prosecution (he was also being investigated for being a spy and helping the Japanese) around 1934, then returned as "Muhammad Abdullah".

Sources: Finding W.D. Fard: Unveiling the Identity of the Founder of the Nation of Islam By John Andrew Morrow link

^Escanaba Daily Press (November 24, 1932) on the murder committed by Robert Harris. It says that Wallace Fard "is awaiting an immigration hearing. Officials said he came to the United States from Asia." link.

^His two findagrave.com profiles link, link

From his findagrave.com profile: "What is certain, is that he was in Fiji from 1934 until roughly 1959"

^Warith Deen Muhammad claimed that Fard had returned to the United States under the name Muhammad Abdullah. In 1976, W.D. had appointed Muhammad Abdullah as imam of Muhammad's Mosque #77 in Oakland, California. The November 26, 1976, issue of the NOI journal Bilalian News reports Muhammad Abdullah's first khutbah at the mosque and shows a photo. W.D. Mohammad did not state that Muhammad Abdullah was Fard until after Abdullah's death in 1992.

Here he is with Louis Farrakhan and Jim Jones in 1976:

https://calisphere.org/item/7c7690dd7f54dc713239e1a824301a26/ (source album: https://calisphere.org/collections/27519)

Video of him using the name Muhammad Abdullah in 1977:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgu33pkLsis&feature=emb_title (original source: https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/229337)

Video of him using the name Muhammad Abdullah in 1989:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0lnqQPybM

Wallace Fard Jr & Wallace Elija Ford

I'm new to this topic -- what do we know about these men / this man. Was the 1910 census a one-time spelling glitch by a white census-taker who didn't understand an accent? At minimum, it's a hell of a coincidence if a person born in 1894, listed in a 1910 census as Wallace Fard Jr, would die in 1939 using the middle name name Elija. Feoffer (talk) 09:27, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Feoffer I think Resume Byron finally solved the case of the origin place of Fard. Watch his clip more than once. I'm convinced to 80% that Wallace Fard Jr. from Jasper, Texas is the savior of the NOI.

I have no clue why my user page doesn't appear, if you click on my name. I joined Wikipedia 14 years ago.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:KingOfRay KingOfRay (talk) 07:56, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Fixed the user page issue for ya.

Based just on the census data alone, I agree with skeptics that it's quite unlikely the man from Jasper is part of this story. However, he makes and excellent figurehead for a possibility that should be taken more seriously -- namely that Fard could have been African-American.

When 18th-century European archaeologists first discovered sophisticated architecture in Kush, they wrote whole journals arguing about who built it : The Romans? the Phoenicians? The Egyptians or the Persians?

But their racists minds didn't consider even the real answer. Who built the structures of Kush? The Nubians, duh.

This article (or a future sub article dedicated just to Fard's origin and fate) absolutely should mention the possibility that could have just someone just like the man from Jasper.

Meanwhile, I expect researchers will keep digging. If the man from Jasper is the same person who died in 1939 under the Wallace Elija Ford, well, now you have two data points suggesting that's Master Fard. But biggest problem I see with the Jasper hypothesis is that we know Fred Dodd is in Oregon in 1910, not Texas. Feoffer (talk) 01:47, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

“Fred Dodd” is not found in Oregon until 1913 where he sold food from a lunch wagon in Salem Oregon. In April of 1914, 20 year-old Wallace Fard ( as “Fred Dodd” ) married 17-year-old native-American, Pearl Allen Enouf, and later that same year he filed for divorce from her in November. There is no documented proof that Wallace Fard, the NOI founder ( as “Fred Dodd” ) was ever in Oregon prior to 1913.

Ghostwriter, AK Arian claims that Fard arrived in America in 1904 from Afghanistan aboard a Chinese ship as 21-year-old “Khan Alam” but his name later changed to Khanialam Khan, then Zardad Khan, and finally to a host of other names based on non-logical rational. Mind you, Fard spoke perfect English with no detection of a foreign accent. This would be highly unlikely for a poor young uneducated foreigner coming to America for the first time.

Resume Byron ( "resume" as in a job application ) 2600:1700:72EA:E880:919C:230B:E39:39D (talk) 04:48, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, ResumeByron, welcome to Wikipedia! I'm so happy to see you. Thank you for your excellent youtube videos which really helped me get up to speed. Inspired by your overview, I now have copies of Evanszzz, Bowen, and Morrow, with a copy of Arian's work on the way. While I don't yet know how to properly source it to meet Wikipedia's requirements and guidelines, but I am keeping my eyes open for a way to incorporate the hypothesis you present; One way might be to get someone like Bowen or Fanusie to comment on your hypothesis, even if only to explain why they don't share it. In such a case, we could probably get it into the article.

I hope you'll make an account here so that we can recognize you regardless of what your current ip-address might be, and send you notifications.

This page is desperately in need of a subject matter expert, so welcome! Some of my questions include:

• When did Fard begin giving new names -- in 1930, or only later?
• Elijah Muhammad and Muhammad Ali both made allusions to having telephone calls with God -- is there recordings / footage / sourcing of them making such a claim?
• Did Fard really introduce the Mother Plane, or was that Elijah Muhammad? What's the earliest record of the Mother Plane? What language did they use to describe it?
• What did Elijah Muhammad say about Muhammad Abdullah being Fard and when? What did Wallace (Warith Deen) say about Abdullah and when??

Any help would be greatly appreciated, again thank you for your video. I've been meaning to improve this article for a long time and after seeing your video, I just couldn't resist digging into it.

Feoffer (talk) 05:31, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Elijah Muhammad claimed that Fard told him about the Mother Plane and how it was built in Japan. Elijah claimed it was a large circular-like spacecraft that carried 15k smaller “planes” that were specifically created to kill white people, lol. What a racist “God”. It was the perfect language for oppressed black Americans of that time in the 1930s.

There is no documented exact date as to when Fard began “selling” so-called holy names. Fard did not “give away” names to those poor black people. He “sold” them names ($10 per person), cheap note paper, pencils, and even the gaudy yellow ID cards ($2 per card) on which the holy names were printed. When he was arrested in 1932, he told police that was his only source of income. There is also no exact date of when he arrived in Detroit, although he claimed it was July 4, 1930. By the way, July 4th was the birth date of Wallace Fard Sr, of Jasper, Texas. As I pointed out in my YouTube video, the NOI founder created folklore from real-life events surrounding his life.

Warrith Deen, Elijah’s son, made statements that he “literally” talked to Fard on the telephone. Of course, Warrith Deen was referring to Muhammad Abdullah who was not Fard. I doubt seriously that Elijah and surely not Muhammad Ali talked to Fard after 1934. Fard was likely dead shortly after abruptly disappearing in 1934.

Muhammad Abdullah of Pakistan said he came to America for the first time in his life in 1959 to visit his son who was a student at UC Berkeley and stumbled on a group called the Nation of Islam. Delighted to see young black men proclaiming to be Muslims, Abdullah wanted to know more about the group and questioned a member who introduced him to Wallace (Warrith) Muhammad who arranged a meeting between Abdullah and his father, Elijah. Muhammad Abdullah flew to Chicago later that year in 1959 and had dinner with Elijah and his new young Muslim friend, Wallace who changed his name to Warithuddin Mohammed. Before this dinner engagement, the two men, Elijah Muhammad and Muhammad Abdullah had never met. However, after this meeting, Elijah would later tell lies to certain members that Muhammad Abdullah was actually Master Fard Muhammad. Warrith Mohammed even began telling that same lie but later changed his story before he died in 2008. Resume Byron 2600:1700:72EA:E880:CD2C:202:B1BD:3FB6 (talk) 02:47, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this info, Bryon! I really appreciate your insight!

If you can pin down when the "Mother Plane" was first taught, please let us known. I've read it started with a UFO report that they read about in a newspaper? But UFOs weren't a big thing until 1947. At the same time, the idea that the motherplane would be JAPANESE is not something that would have been added after Japan's defeat in WW2, suggesting the Mother Plane really does date back to before Pearl Harbor. One of my other interests is early 20th century UFO reports, so I'd love if I could ever someday pin down the specific newspaper report that led to the motherplane mythos. Feoffer (talk) 23:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

There is no name with the exact spelling of "Fred Dodd" listed in Oregon in 1910. As tamale street peddlers, Fred the Greek and Fred the Turk are listed in Oregon newspaper clippings as early as 1908. But the exact spelling (Fred Dodd) does not appear nowhere in Oregon until 1913 in a Daily Capital Journal newspaper article dated September 12, 1913. Present one incident of the exact spelling "Fred Dodd" a tamale vendor, listed in Oregon in 1910 or anytime before. Simply because those tamale street peddlers' went by the name "Fred" does not mean their last names was Dodd and moreover aliases of the NOI founder. The mysterious person who created this theory and put it in a book, A.K. Arian (whom we now know is actually Karl Evanzz who has other origin stories for Fard) did so anonymously because he did not truly believe the story himself and was trying to make up a believable connection. Resume Byron 2600:1700:72EA:E880:CD2C:202:B1BD:3FB6 (talk) 00:46, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Post the public record showing the name "Fred Dodd" in Oregon in 1910. Not Fred the Turk, Fred the Greek, or Fred Walldad. Again, Fred Dodd does not appear in any public record until 1913. Please show us otherwise. 2600:1700:72EA:E880:CD2C:202:B1BD:3FB6 (talk) 01:00, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this info. I have updated the section heading to reflect the name Dadd as well as Dodd. Covering the Fred Dodd of Oregon theory doesn't imply an endorsement of it, we note in the article the identification is disputed. If you can think of specific changes we could make to help readers understand that, please propose them. Feoffer (talk) 01:43, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

“But biggest problem I see with the Jasper hypothesis is that we know Fred Dodd is in Oregon in 1910, not Texas.” - Copied and pasted verbatim. -

What I am addressing is the part of the above sentence stating “…we know Fred Dodd is in Oregon in 1910, not Texas.” Fred Dodd was one of many aliases the NOI founder used. How he came across the name, Fred Dodd, we do not know. We do know he used many aliases; 56 to be exact, according to FBI records.

Assuming “Fred Dodd” is the NOI founder, Wallace Fard; he would not be in Oregon in 1910 according to the 1910 census report of Jasper, Texas. However, we can safely argue that a person named “Fred Dodd” appearing in Oregon “AFTER 1910” could possibly be the NOI founder.

That said, there was a Fred Dodd who DID live in Oregon in 1910, but he was Frederick Arthur Dodd and went by simply, “Fred Dodd”. However, this Fred Dodd was not our Fred Dodd (the NOI founder), because this Fred Dodd lived in Oregon his entire life and was married to Mary Dodd. Our Fred Dodd was married to Pearl Allen Enouf Dodd whom he divorced in 1914, changed his name, moved to California, and subsequently to Chicago and Detroit. - RESUME BYRON - 2600:1700:72EA:E880:CD2C:202:B1BD:3FB6 (talk) 03:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I am in the process of making a video where I fully analyze the undeniable similarities between Wallace Fard of the NOI, Wallace Fard Jr of Jasper, TX, and Wallace Elija Ford of Colmesneil, TX. Wallace Elija Ford was a mulatto just as the NOI founder and Wallace Fard Jr. Multiple public records were changed regarding Wallace Elija Ford after his death on January 6, 1939. RESUME BYRON -- 2600:1700:72EA:E880:CD2C:202:B1BD:3FB6 (talk) 05:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Elijah Muhammad: "I can talk to Fard any time I want"?

I'm pretty sure I recently saw footage of Elijah Muhammad in the 1960s or 70s talking how he can talk to his mentor any time he wants. And then he clarifies that he doesn't mean spiritually communicate, he means that he can pick up a telephone can call him. Sadly, I can't remember where I saw this footage (beyond Youtube). I presume it's related to the later identification of Muhammad Abdullah as Fard. @KingOfRay:, do you know where Elijah Muhammad said that? Feoffer (talk) 08:54, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Feoffer I think that was Muhammad Ali. Who once said he can call God (referring to Fard) anytime by picking up the telephone. I think his daughter also claims that he had met him as a child.

I don't remember Elijah Muhammad making such a statement.

There have always been rumors that Fard still lives somewhere close to Elijah Muhammad. Being protected by him. But I think that those are really just rumours.

Other people said that Muhammad Abdullah, the Iman of the Mosque #26 in Oakland was actually Fard in hiding. There're many YouTube clips and websites with this topic. But I think nothing of this has any real encyclopedic value at all. KingOfRay (talk) 08:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Congratulations!

I don't know if this is the right place to leave this comment but:

The article has improved vastly over a small period. Thanks to many of you guys. I also did my best to close existing gaps.

While only a while a ago, this man was "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma", by now the Wikipedia article gives you informations about his vita, unknown even to people interested in his person and work.

The NOI might not be very amused about it but this article helps a lot in taking the sovereignty of interpretation about him, from their hands into the public's.

Thanks a lot!

(To the mods: Feel free to move my comment to were it actually belongs, by the rules of Wikipedia) KingOfRay (talk) 08:38, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words; Hopefully all parties benefit from a good article on an important individual. Feoffer (talk) 09:13, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Excessive detail in Efforts to trace Fard's origin and fate section

It seems to me that there is an excessive amount of detail about the lives of people who have been speculated to be Fard. For example, I don't see how it is relevant to the article or useful to the reader to know about the vacation which Fred Dodd took. In addition, there is nothing in the article explaining a link between Fred Walldad and Fard, and I can't find anything online.

I'm not an expert and I don't want to unilaterally remove information, but it seems to me that this section could use some cleaning up. Other input would be appreciated. LemonOrangeLime (talk) 14:00, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I actually anticipated this concern. Whole books have been written about Fard's origins, and our readers should be able to learn about the contents of those books -- but on the other hand, even if Fard really was a Tamale vendor in Oregon earlier in life, what does it matter to his legacy?

I didn't know if anyone would have this concern but myself, but now that you have shared it, my proposal would be to split off this content in to a subarticle about Fard's origins, so that the casual reader of the biography doesn't have to get mired down in details that the historians document. Does that plan sound good to you? Feoffer (talk) 23:21, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Lead image

The arguments for replacing the mugshot with the unfree image are “never been confirmed to be him” and “considered offensive”. “Offensive” isn’t a valid reason per WP:NOTCENSORED so that leaves “never confirmed to be him” which is presented without evidence. Plus another apparently public domain image (file:WDFardcloseup.jpg) exists so if it’s really an issue we can just crop that one. Dronebogus (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

It would violate NPOV to lead the article with an obscure mugshot to represent the founder of a religion which uses a historic photo for veneration. Additionally, we need the NoI official portrait so readers can do facial comparisons themselves between the NoI founder and the various photographs of people purported to be Fard. NOTCENSORED doesn't enter into it -- the mug shots are all still in the article. Feoffer (talk) 00:35, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You failed to explain why either image supposedly isn’t him. Also NPOV doesn’t apply at all to what is essentially a copyright problem, unless you’re specifically arguing for a more flattering portrait for its own sake (which would be NPOV on your part) Dronebogus (talk) 16:29, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

You failed to explain why either image supposedly isn’t him. Well that's because I tend to think all the images likely are of the same subject -- but that's a controversial statement, even amongst historians. NoI members have historically rejected as a matter of faith that the other images are of Fard.

unless you’re specifically arguing for a more flattering portrait for its own sake

Not 'flattering', per se -- but a historic image of the subject in his role as religious leader is a more informative and higher-quality depiction than a mere mug shot or newspaper clipping. Mug shots are rarely used as primary image for individuals who have notability outside of crimes. Feoffer (talk) 23:44, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The latter isn’t an excuse to violate fair use rules and quite frankly I don’t care what the NoI thinks because they also think white people are evil devils created by a mad scientist. Dronebogus (talk) 00:41, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

The official portrait is completely valid under our fair use rules. I don’t care what the NoI thinks because they also think white people are evil devils created by a mad scientist.

You're free not to care, but NPOV requires us to lead with a representative image of the subject as he is typically shown -- that's the NoI portrait. The lead image of Muhammad is caligraphy, since that's how he's typically depicted. Joseph Smith's lead image is his historic portrait, not the recently-discovered photograph of him. Feoffer (talk) 01:39, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Regrettably to some, but police mug shots and newspaper photo clippings are the only true photographs of the NOI founder. According to Elijah Muhammad's son, Wallace (Warithuddin) Mohammed, the official NOI portrait of the NOI founder was a "cosmetic or doctored" photo of Wallace Fard. Elijah Muhammad's son said the NOI founder used a perming application to straighten his curly wavy-like hair before sitting for the portrait that became the official NOI portrait of Wallace Fard. This description of Fard with curly hair is in line with every mug shot of the criminal Wallace Ford of California who is actually Wallace Fard. Elijah's son added that his father, Elijah Muhammad had many other pictures of the NOI founder which he did not allow members to see. RESUME BYRON 2600:1700:72EA:E880:CD2C:202:B1BD:3FB6 (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

He was 100% a black supremacist

He was a member of the moorish science temple of america, a black supremacist cult, before he left and founded the nation of islam, another black supremacist cult, he taught that black people were the original humans on earth until a scientist named Yakub created "white devils" using eugenics, he was a black supremacist, Elijah Muhammad said multiple times Wallace taught him the Yakub story. 2804:6A00:F014:8700:E9CD:1795:346B:1EC3 (talk) 16:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that support any of this? Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

"MUH SOURCES"

lmao, pathetic, any simple google search will tell you pretty much the same things as i said, even the article on him mentions this, go back to reddit 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 11:20, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! Sorry to revert your changes, but I can't source them yet. (And I _have_ tried). Elijah Muhammad absolutely said W.D. Fard was a black supremacist -- but we don't know Elijah was telling the truth. Other of Fards followers said he used "Devils" to refer to ANY non-believer, not just whites. The recent breakthrough connecting Fard to Rutherford further strengthens the already-strong hypothesis that Fard's "devils" were different than Elijah Muhammad's "white devils". A further complication is that the term "black supremacist" is totally anachronistic to Fard's era, it's a phrasing from the 1960s.

To establish Fard as a black supremacist, we need a published source from BEFORE he left Detroit, ideally from a critic, accusing him of preaching something akin to what we modernly understand as black supremacy. I honestly don't doubt that datum exists, but damned if I or any scholar has found it yet. And if I can't source it, people like Slatersteven will absolutely remove it if I were to try to add it (as well they should!!!) Feoffer (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that saying "black people are the original humans on earth until an evil scientist created white people using eugenics" 100% qualifies as black supremacy, even if the term didn't existed yet, just because the phrase didn't existed at the time doesn't mean the ideas didn't, black supremacy wasn't invented in the 1960's the TERM was coined in the 60's to refer to people that believed black people to be superior to white people. 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 11:26, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, there's lots of good reasons to suspect Fard _did_ teach something akin to "non-white supremacy" -- but I don't get to use my own opinions. Suppose someone says Fard never actually taught that part of the Yacub story -- that white people were inherently diabolical? Maybe that interpretation was Elijah's?

Note that even after the "voodoo murder", the Detroit police never accuse him of being "anti-white" -- and they WERE looking hard at him. There's also the sort of inherent cognitive dissonance of palefaced man preaching white folks are ALL devils. We have at least one firsthand witness insists Fard taught black people were devils too. Feoffer (talk) 14:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

"here's also the sort of inherent cognitive dissonance of palefaced man preaching white folks are ALL devils"

i mean as you said, cognitive disonance, there's lot of self-hating whites that have white guilt, also maybe he didnt actually believed any of the junk he preached and only did that for the money. 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 17:48, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

besides, on wallace being a former member of the moorish science temple of america(from the same article):

Potential link to Moorish Science Temple of America

[edit]

In addition to his assertion that Fard was Ford, Evanzz also said that Fard was once a member of the Moorish Science Temple of America, citing as a primary source the 1945 publication by Arna Bontemps and Jack Conroy titled They Seek A City. Authors have also cited E. U. Essien-Udom for this proposition as well. In his 1962 book Black Nationalism: The Search for an Identity, Essien-Udom wrote:

Noble Drew Ali was shot and stabbed in his offices at the Unity Club in Chicago on the night of March 15, 1929. … He was eventually released on bond, but a few weeks later, he died under mysterious circumstances. Some people claim that he died from injuries inflicted by the police while he was in jail. Others, however, suggest that he was killed by [Sheik Claude] Greene's partisans. For some time, one W. D. Fard assumed leadership of the Moorish movement. According to Bontemps and Conroy, Fard claimed that he was the reincarnation of Noble Drew Ali. By 1930 a permanent split developed in the movement. One faction, the Moors, remains faithful to Noble Drew Ali, and the other, which is now led by Elijah Muhammad, remains faithful to Prophet Fard (Master Wallace Fard Muhammad). However, Minister Malcolm X and other leaders of the Nation of Islam have emphatically denied any past connection whatsoever of Elijah Muhammad, Master Wallace Fard Muhammad, or their movement with Nobel Drew Ali's Moorish American Science Temple.

On the question of a connection between the Nation of Islam and the Moorish Science Temple of America, Beynon wrote:

Awakened already to a consciousness of race discrimination, these migrants from the South came into contact with militant movements among northern Negroes. Practically none of them had been in the North prior to the collapse of the Marcus Garvey movement. A few of them had come under the influence of the Moorish-American cult which succeeded it. The effect of both these movements upon the future members of the Nation of Islam was largely indirect. Garvey taught the Negroes that their homeland was Ethiopia. The Noble Drew Ali, the prophet of the Moorish-Americans, proclaimed that these people were 'descendants of Morrocans [Moroccans]'.

Beynon further wrote: "The prophet's message was characterized by his ability to utilize to the fullest measure the environment of his followers. Their physical and economic difficulties alike were used to illustrate the new teaching. Similarly, biblical prophecies and the teachings of Marcus Garvey and Noble Drew Ali were cited as foretelling the coming of the new prophet." Bowen rejects claims that Fard was a member of the MSTA as unsubstantiated.[citation needed] 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 11:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

""MUH SOURCES"" sorry but read wp:policy nothing can be added to an article unless it is cited to RS. Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

lmao, i already gave you sources showing he was probably a member of the moorish science temple of america, also the sources wikipedia considers as "reliable" are a joke, they can go to actual reliable sources to garbage like the ADL, also primary sources>>>secondary sources, but not according to this website i guess... 2804:6A00:F014:8700:6D26:51B5:5C43:147F (talk) 17:45, 8 September 2024 (UTC)