WP:CFD/T

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Read and understand Wikipedia:Categorization before using this page. Nominate categories that violate policies here, or are misspelled, mis-capitalized, redundant/need to be merged, not NPOV, small without potential for growth, or are generally bad ideas. (See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Manual of Style.)
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Special notes

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Discussion for Today

This page is transcluded from Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024_December_2

December 2

NEW NOMINATIONS

Category:Action horror video games

Propose deleting Category:Action horror video games (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: This category is more dependent on subcategories than articles, and only has one article at the moment, being Kenseiden. I don't see action horror video game being a true legitimate genre, and many horror games already consider to fall under the action games genre anyway. QuantumFoam66 (talk) 17:41, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, the subcategories are already in Category:Horror video games by series. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:46, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Defunct National Premier Soccer League stadiums

Propose deleting Category:Defunct National Premier Soccer League stadiums (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: The NPSL is a low-level soccer league and none of these stadiums are defined by hosting it. User:Namiba 17:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:OCVENUE. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:21st-century members of the Maine Legislature

Propose renaming Category:21st-century members of the Maine Legislature to Category:21st-century members of the Maine House of Representatives

Nominator's rationale: Candidates are not elected to the Maine Legislature; they are elected to either the Maine House of Representatives or the Maine Senate. All of those in this category were elected to the House. User:Namiba 17:02, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, sibling categories are named e.g. Category:African-American state legislators in Maine and Category:LGBTQ state legislators in Maine. Is that format useful here too? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Category-Class Comics articles of NA-importance

Propose deleting Category:Category-Class Comics articles of NA-importance (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Redundant to Category:Category-Class Comics articles Fram (talk) 15:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional gnomes

Propose merging Category:Fictional gnomes to Category:Gnomes

Nominator's rationale: Are there non-fictional gnomes? Fram (talk) 08:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. The lede in Category:Gnomes suggests that's the intention of the category, and it has a simpler name. No reason to have two categories here and no reason to keep Category:Fictional gnomes --Northernhenge (talk) 12:24, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, the distinction seems to be about modern fiction as opposed to old legends. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:13, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge There is no real distinction. It would be hard to come up with one that isn't WP:OR. Jontesta (talk) 19:34, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Single seat helicopters

Propose deleting Category:Single seat helicopters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: We don't categorize aircraft by their number of seats. Arguably non-defining; if you take out additional seats for various reasons (adding equipment, long-range fuel tanks, etc.) does the helicopter count as a single-seater? The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CommentThere is some truth to that for sure, even if most aircraft do get rated for a certain number of passengers. For FAA Ultra-light helicopters they are only allowed to carry one passenger, so we just follow the sources we don't have to make a determination or expand this to other light aircraft that have more flexibility. A75 (talk) 16:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, the nominator is incorrect. Helicopters are categorized this way, the FAA standard for ultra-light helicopters have to be one seat. If you see this list List of ultralight helicopters. I did not choose describe them as FAA Ultralight helicopters, because single seat helicopters have existed before this FAA regulation though they are popular now. In addition, the recent development evtols such as the Jetson One are also categorized this way, and are still baiscally helicopters even if they take a different technical approach. A75 (talk) 14:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Here, don't take my word for it. If you see Ultralight aircraft (United States), you can see that having a single-seat is important part of this standard. Thank you A75 (talk) 15:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment For comparison, it is common for fighter aircraft, to be categorized as single seat or two seat fighter aircraft, just to round out this discussion. A75 (talk) 16:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Helicopters and aircraft are categorized this way by the FAA, yes. Wikipedia's categorization scheme does not categorize aircraft by number of seats, nor should we, as it is not a WP:DEFINING characteristic of the aircrat, especially to an outside observer. Also an "ultralight helicopter" may well be required to be a single-seat helicopter, but "single-seat helicopter" =/= "ultralight helicopter" as ultralight aircraft is a very specific classification by the FAA. Category:Ultralight helicopters would be a valid categorization alongside Category:Ultralight aircraft. Category:Single seat helicopters is not. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Having one seat is definitely a defining trait, and many single seat helicopters are noted as such. This is similar to fighter aircraft, and of course passenger airliners often mention passenger capacity. I don't have an opinion on starting another category for ultra-light helicopters right now, though we can agree that not all single-seat helicopters may be ultra-lights. A75 (talk) 21:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of whether or not it is consisdered WP:DEFINING, it doesn't change the fact that we don't categorise aircraft by number of seats. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:49, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac 1 5 05:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Novels about adultery

Propose renaming Category:Novels about adultery to Category:Novels about infidelity

Nominator's rationale: This would mirror Category:Films about infidelity, and allows for the inclusion of novels on the theme that are about infidelity outside of marriage. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 17:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac 1 5 05:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:National artists of Thailand

Propose renaming Category:National artists of Thailand to Category:National Artist (Thailand) awardees

Nominator's rationale: I previously raised objection to the decapitalisation of the category title at WT:CFD, though the reversion process seems to have fallen through the cracks. Anyway, as I mentioned in that discussion, the National Artist title is an award, and directly using the award title for the category does feel a bit unnatural. To compare, we don't refer to Academy Award "Best Actors", but "Best Actor winners". Renaming the category as proposed would better reflect the nature of the title, i.e. its being an award, not a job. Paul_012 (talk) 16:51, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I think the proposed form matches the general preference at CfD to follow the article title, though I personally dislike parenthesis in category titles when natural disambiguation is possible. So I'll also list Category:National Artist of Thailand awardees, Category:National Artist awardees of Thailand, Category:Thai National Artist awardees, and Category:Thailand National Artist awardees as alternative suggestions. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:54, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative Rename or Rename Support matching the main article, National Artist (Thailand), per WP:C2D but Category:National Artists (Thailand) seems more succinct. (Would also support the nominated wording Category:National Artist (Thailand) awardees.) - RevelationDirect (talk) 22:55, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Part of why I want to avoid using National Artists as a noun is because it further leads to the issue of whether it should be capitalised as a proper noun, or decapitalised as a common title per WP:JOBTITLES, as raised in the above-mentioned dispute (which hasn't been resolved). I should probably also tag User:Hey man im josh from the previous speedy discussion. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Oops, I thought someone had re-nommed that for speedy renaming to revert the change, since it was contested (after the fact, making it controversial still and meaning it should be discussed). I am indeed weary of it being pluralized because my understanding is "National Artist" is a title, whereas, I believe, based on WP:JOBTITLES, pluralizing it would lead to not being a proper title. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:25, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  
  If no one else weighs in, I'm fine with your proposed rename. RevelationDirect (talk) 19:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Consensus favors a rename, though no clear consensus on what the new name should be. In particular, thoughts on Josh's comment (which would imply lowercase-a "National artist")?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 02:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Reply to relisting comment) I think there's agreement on Category:National Artist (Thailand) awardees. Hey man im josh's comment was in favour of lower-case national artists if the term is in plural, but the original proposal is not affected by this. --Paul_012 (talk) 23:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose regarding Category:National Artist (Thailand) awardees since it's not an ordinary award (or even an ordinary honorary award), it's an honorary title given by the state (see National Artist or similar honorary titles like People's Artist and Honored Artist/Merited Artist). If we look at the current category names for this kind of title (Category:People's_Artists, Category:Honored Artists, and Category:Merited Artists, which also would be affected by this discussion, I believe), most have the form "... Artists of country" (for many the article title matches that but not for all), a few have the lower-case variant of that ("... artists of country"), and one has the form "Recipients of the title of Merited Artist of country". If we want to avoid the plural, I would support something along the lines of the last form ("Recipients of the title of x", where x can match the article title); "awardees" is very uncommon in general (basically not used atm, see search) and seems like a particularly odd choice for recipients of a title.
If we want to have something closer to the current naming scheme (i.e. a plural form), I think the question is whether honorary titles fall under "Positions, offices, and occupational titles". I could not find a answer in discussions on that (I have seen some discussion about the (honorary) title of "Fellow", where it was argued that this could be interpreted as a position within a society, but I think that applies to this current discussion not as much), but it seems to me like all the examples in WP:JOBTITLES are very much occupation related (and that this was the intent behind this guideline), which the honors discussed here are clearly not. If we believe that honorary titles fall under WP:JOBTITLES, then arguments based on the specificity of the title would be irrelevant, since that is is not a reason to capitalize it per WP:JOBTITLES. Similarly, the argument that "National Artist" is a proper noun and that this leads to the plural being a proper noun (and capitalized) as well wouldn't work since there seems to be a consensus that such plural forms of titles are, in fact, not proper nouns and always capitalized (see Talk:List of presidents of the United States/Archive 13#Requested move 27 July 2019), and honestly, if "Presidents of the United States" is not considered a proper noun, then "National Artists" definitely isn't either. So, if we decide that WP:JOBTITLES does indeed apply to honorary titles, I think the lower-case plural is a given. If we decide that honorary titles do not fall under "Positions, offices, and occupational titles", then we still have MOS:PEOPLETITLES as a guideline, which doesn't say anything about plurals (although something is implied by an individual's name). I think the proper nouns argument would still lead to lower-case plural, but the consensus and arguments were specifically in reference to WP:JOBTITLES, so who knows. Felida⁹⁷ (talk) 03:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know this is already too long, but I want to note a more general consideration (and potential argument for a capitalized plural despite MOS:JOBTITLES) that I came across when thinking about this discussion, and that is the fact that categories are obv inherently different from articles in various ways (and have a kind of special/particular function), and it may be debatable to what extent an article guideline like WP:JOBTITLES (or style guidelines, such as the Chicago Manual of Style, that are frequently referenced in style discussions) should apply to categories or category names (I'm not sure whether there is a nice analog equivalent for those). Or are categories perhaps so distinct/special in their structure/purpose that one could argue to have different rules for certain aspects? One aspect where this is already the case is that article titles generally should be singular in form (see WP:SINGULAR), whereas names of set categories are generally plural, which totally makes sense because of the different structure and function compared with articles. But, as I said, this is more general consideration. Felida⁹⁷ (talk) 03:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Awardees is just what I came up with off the top of my head, so I'm open to other suggestions. But Category:Recipients of the title of National Artist of Thailand does seem rather unwieldy. RevelationDirect and Hey man im josh, what do you think? --Paul_012 (talk) 05:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with either of those. I acknowledge I could be wrong about "Artists", but it does seem that pluralizing the title would result in MOS:JOBTITLES applying, so whatever is done to get around that I'm fine with. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's true (although in this instance it would be Category:Recipients of the title of National Artist (Thailand) to match the article title, right? [side note: I noticed that some of these titles have the "of country" part in the official title, but the Thailand one does not afaict, so the article title National Artist (Thailand) is not necessarily wrong and matching it was supported by all, I think]). My suggestion is also not that common atm (four cats), but that is because almost all category names for this kind of honor use the plural (here's another similar title: Category:Hero (title); same for Category:Honorary titles of the United Kingdom, Category:Honorary titles of Russia or Category:Honorary titles of the Holy See), and afaics, "Recipients of the title of..." is the most common (and only non-plural) alternative (and "Recipients of ..." seems to be common for other official state honors). Given the implications for quite a few categories and since our current direction here goes so clearly against the overwhelming majority of names, this honorary-titles-JOBTITLES-plural-capitalization issue probably should be discussed under wider participation to settle it (especially since a good portion of those plural names is currently wrong and should be corrected anyway, no matter what the correct form is), right? Felida⁹⁷ (talk) 02:18, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Thoughts on Felida97's latest comment (suggesting Category:Recipients of the title of National Artist (Thailand))?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 03:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Recipients of the title of National Artist (Thailand) is very long and I am not convinced of its merits. Category:National Artist (Thailand) awardees does the job equally well and is a lot shorter. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would favor this as well based on brevity and what strikes me as more natural language. (This comment is for clarification, not a 2nd !vote.) RevelationDirect (talk) 14:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Am I really the only one who finds "awardee" an entirely uncommon way to refer to a recipient of a (honorary state) title/honour (as pointed out, it's also currently extremely uncommon even among catgories for ordinary, i.e. non-state and/or non-honorary, awards)? It would also leads to, at least more odd-sounding, names, such as Category:Hero of the Soviet Union awardees (currently Category:Heroes of the Soviet Union), Category:Hero of Socialist Labour awardees (currently Category:Heroes of Socialist Labour), and "Category:Honored Artist of the Russian Federation awardees (currently Category:Honored Artists of the Russian Federation), and unless we want to carve out a special case for British titles, we would get categories like Category:Australian Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath awardees (currently Category:Australian Knights Commander of the Order of the Bath).

"Recipients of ..." is also the overwhelmingly used scheme for other state honours (as in orders, decorations, and medals, see subsubcats of Category:Recipients of orders, decorations, and medals by awarding country and Category:British honours system). Felida⁹⁷ (talk) 15:13, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly prefer any of the plural variants (Category:National artists (Thailand)/Category:National Artists (Thailand)/Category:National artists of Thailand/Category:National Artists of Thailand) to "Category:National Artist (Thailand) awardees", because then it's at least consistent with current names of basically every other category in Category:Honorary titles and its subcats (e.g., Category:Hero (title), Category:Honored Artists, Category:Merited Artists, Category:People's Artists etc.), with the few exceptions being a) the "Recipients of the title of singular" names in Category:Honorary titles of Ukraine and b) some few that just use the (singular) name of the title as is (e.g., Category:Hero of the People's Armed Forces, Category:National Hero of Armenia, Category:People's Artiste of Azerbaijan). Felida⁹⁷ (talk) 15:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm not really sure how best to proceed. Maybe this should fall back on the status quo prior to the CFDS and be renamed back to Category:National Artists of Thailand. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Category:Recipients of the title of National Artist (Thailand). Sorry for making this more complicated on a closer, but I have to agree that awardee is an awkward way to refer to a title. For example, I would hardly say someone was "awarded" a knightship. See also Felida97's argument about subcategories of Category:Recipients of orders, decorations, and medals by awarding country. Best, House Blaster (talk • he/they) 23:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rename to Category:National Artists (Thailand). Consistent with the previously cited Category:Honored Artists of the Russian Federation and other categories for honors, which are all capitalized and plural. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 15:53, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It's not typical to extend a discussion for so long, but I think this is the situation to do it. Would like to see if there's more agreement on a certain name.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac 1 5 05:36, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Origin stories

Propose deleting Category:Origin stories (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Is this really a defining category? This has recently been added to several film articles related to pop culture IPs, particularly films about characters' origin stories, but most of them have a WP:RECENTISM bias and it has been removed from others. There are only two other articles about specific origin stories beyond this parent subject (those being for Batman and Superman), and no inclusion of other literary origins or even the basis of these works. This feels to me like an WP:Overcategorization issue. The parent article on this subject makes little to no mention of the works presently included in this cat, anyway. Trailblazer101 (talk) 04:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Selectively upmerge per nom, this is unavoidably going to lead to WP:OR. But move Origin story, Origin of Superman and Origin of Batman to Category:Origins. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:26, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedia Medcab category cases

Propose deleting Category:Wikipedia Medcab category cases (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Not even sure what this category is doing. The word "category" does not appear in its only member, Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-05-27 Anti-Canadianism. That page is already in Category:Wikipedia Medcab closed cases, so we can delete this category. House Blaster (talk • he/they) 04:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Plant cognition

Propose renaming Category:Plant cognition to Category:Plant intelligence

Nominator's rationale: Per the sourcing at plant cognition all of the WP:RS use the term "plant intelligence", not plant cognition. The main article also needs to renamed to plant intelligence but I believe this category should also be changed. Psychologist Guy (talk) 02:52, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the wrong order. The article should be renamed first, if that happened the category can follow. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:32, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]