Important notice: Prior consensus has decided that Taiwan is to be referred to as a country.
Changes to the article to refer to Taiwan as a state, island, province of China, or other definition are not permitted and may be reverted. See here for the 2020 RfC in which editors reached this decision.
Please do not add Simplified characters and tongyong pinyin to the country infobox.
Please refrain from adding "(Taiwan)" all over the article as this article includes substantial information about the Republic of China prior to the Taiwan post-war era.
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated, especially about "country" vs "state", and "Taiwan" vs "Republic of China", and "Taiwan is a part of China", and "Taiwan is a province of China". Please read recent comments and look in the archives before commenting on that topic.
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. Ifconsensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
Determine whether Taiwan should be called a 'country' or 'state'
Complete: Consensus has been reached for Taiwan to be called a 'country'. The consensus was 33 for country, 10 for state, and 5 for some variation of state. Here is the page on which consensus was reached
Add a short section about the culture and the geography of the ROC territories (with links to the main articles)
Review alt text of images
Should the role and influence of Sun Yat-sen be introduced in the History section?
Taiwan was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Keoni Everington (2020-06-15). "Wikipedia finally designates Taiwan as 'country'". Taiwan News. Retrieved 2020-06-16. In a request for comments (RFC) page created to debate the proper status of Taiwan in its Wikipedia entry, editors in May fiercely debated the merits of referring to Taiwan as a "state" or a "country."
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Taiwan was copied or moved into Sports in Taiwan with this edit on 22 October 2019. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
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Taiwan is an island country. It's even listed on https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_island_countries as such, and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Taiwan begins with "Taiwan is an island country in East Asia." Other articles like that of Japan or Madagascar also begin with "X is an island country in Y / off the coast of Z..."). It's not strictly necessary but how come this article doesn't begin with "Taiwan is an island country"?
This is pretty much an edit request (please edit the article with this suggestion if it's valid) but I'm more interested if there's a reason why it's not already since I'd assume it to be obvious. Sorry if it's been brought up before, I did check the recent archives of this talk page but couldn't find anything. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be an assumption, not covered by the close which only covers the issue of county, which this does not change. I can only go by myself, but I try to answer the RFC question asked, not any ancillary matters (so if asked whether we call dogs animals I would say yes, not yes but also call them 4-legged) Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only an IP and I'm just repeating Slatersteven's point but I would disagree, the debate was over whether Taiwan should be referred to on Wikipedia as a "country" or as a (sovereign) "state", not over the geography. If Hungary's status was disputed for some reason you wouldn't bother specifying in an RFC that you believe it as a "landlocked country" in place of a "landlocked state", right? You would just comment "I think Hungary should be called a country", I don't think the fact that most didn't specify in the 2020 RFC is worth much. Adding "island" does nothing to dispute Taiwan's political status. Ultimately this is only a minor and not-necessary change and it's up to actual editors like you though. Thank you 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:D9C6:AE8B:9464:59DB (talk) 17:21, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean we can but in general it can get a bit wordy... And there is wide variation across the project, for example we use just country for Indonesia and for the Phillipines we use "archipelagic country" but with a link to archipelagic state. Personally I would rather that they all just say country in the first sentence of the lead and do geography elsewhere in the lead. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree it doesn't matter much, the lead is clear it is made of islands, the inclusion of it as an adjective or not is just flavouring. CMD (talk) 02:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it is just flavoring, but I think “island country” would be quite descriptive and helpful both in the first sentence and in the short description. I think we all agree this would still satisfy the 2020 RfC consensus to use “country.” Butterdiplomat (talk) 03:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be in favour of the change, but some people have objected to it in the past. As I recall, the arguments were (a) it's not just one island, but several little ones too, and (b) claims to the mainland. Of course the first is true of all the other island countries too. Kanguole12:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just add the link.. Island country ....not a big deal and leads readers to info like "a country whose primary territory consists of one or more islands or parts of islands. " and a map that talks about this small country. Moxy🍁 12:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think claims to the “mainland” (a historical and partisan claim) should dictate how the country is factually described. This description also does not prevent the historical ROC claims from being included elsewhere in the article. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Saying Taiwan ROC is an island country is different from saying ROC controls the island. Making them equivalent sounds too much like a political position about its territory. I don't think the first sentence of this article should implicitly promote one. Leave "island" out. The third and fourth sentences already describe the situation as-is. "The territories controlled by the ROC consist of 168 islands with a combined area of 36,193 square kilometres (13,974 square miles). The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa..." CurryCity (talk) 13:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t see the discrepancy or political position. The ROC is (as it stands and as described, like you say, in the next few sentences) an island country. It is a country (which is a political statement deemed accurate from various RfC processes), and it is made of islands. What do you feel is the position the statement implicitly promotes? Butterdiplomat (talk) 15:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article already begins with calling Taiwan a country, not a state or just land controlled by the ROC. That's a political position of its territory already. Island countries aren't any more or less legitimate than continental countries, why would calling Taiwan an island country be changing anything? 2A02:C7E:3188:4C00:71EA:103B:48DE:BCF8 (talk) 17:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the major problem with disagreement on marking the ROC as island country because quite amount of people consider the concept of Taiwan and the Republic of China are not exactly the same, despite being largely overlapping in their current territorial extent. Many people especially those pro-KMT advocate the idea that the ROC still owns sovereignty over Mainland China or Mongolia in constitutional terms. Actually this page once had a discussion not long ago regarding the constitutional claims made by the ROC (see Talk:Taiwan/Archive 39#"Current ROC territorial claims" vs. "historical ROC territorial claims"), the country template show a map [1] depicting a “historical territorial claim” without any reliable supporting sources. Some editors have expressed their concerns about the constitutional terms which did not exactly apply any specific territorial extent to the ROC sovereign claims. Therefore, in practice we may call it an island country, but somehow the wikipedia decided to take a neutral ground on that definition, which was “country” as a consensus in common, but we do not give any explicit definition for the ROC being a state claiming to be a country that beyond the islands of Taiwan or a country limited to these islands. Sheherherhers (talk) 00:14, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not exactly what I mean… What I’m saying is that the Wikipedia allows somewhat ambiguous interpretation in controversial Topics such as Taiwan. It’s not necessary to address a descriptive term as “island country” or “continental country” upon any national-related articles when an inclusive term as simple as “country” that can be accepted by general consensus. So we do not have to make exclusive use for one definition to prevail one another and creating more unnecessary issues. The claims of the ROC is also a political myth that sided by certain group which is just represented as one-side political stance, using country instead of island country does not mean to endorse that position. If the general consensus had a decision to stick to “country”, the Wikipedia would remain a neutral ground on that basis. Sheherherhers (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I also looked into the topic of List of island countries. The content has explained very clear that the reason for the inclusion of Taiwan, as Taiwan being “a state has "de facto" control over territories entirely on the islands”. Sheherherhers (talk) 19:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really think this is the problem, exactly. States and countries are never exactly the same thing—one is an abstraction describing a self-contained administrative, legal, and general political structure, and the other is a greater abstraction encompassing additional, more transcendent elements, e.g. of identity. In English parlance, people feel they are countrymen, they might say they identify with a country—but it would be a much narrower, more cynical statement to say that one is loyal to a state. COMMONNAME aside, this is why it makes sense to call Taiwan a country—because it is one, regardless of the legal fiction of any state.
That said, I don't agree with your formulation because the article isn't about the Republic of China as such, it's about the country Taiwan. There's a hidden conflation there like there is with every article about a modern state because that's what people expect—the article will include the entire political history of the region where the state now is, etc—but it's still a distinction to make.
I'm not personally opposed to calling Taiwan an island country, I just think it's better to be as parsimonious as possible with the rules for pragmatic purposes, given how many gray-faith and bad-faith editors constantly land on this talk page. Remsense诉10:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is worth the discussion. Adding “island country” to the short description and the first sentence brings the page in alignment with other island countries, like Japan or Sri Lanka or New Zealand. For the same reason the term is used on the pages, it would make sense here. As a very minor point, “island country” distinguishes Taiwan from Thailand (unfortunately still often confused today) more quickly in the search results.
Just to play devil’s advocate to your point about gray- and bad-faith editors - what exactly do you think their argument would be? Since the term doesn’t change the substance of the lede, the fact that it may attract bad-faith comments makes it worth the clarification IMO. It feels like there is a reason bad-faith editors would want to avoid the clarification, and we shouldn’t cave to their agenda. Butterdiplomat (talk) 12:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are different theories as to the actual territory of ROC and whether that has changed. Wikipedia should not pick and side with one. So the first sentence should not go into the territory of Republic of China, since parts of ROC and Taiwan have been combined into this article.
Remsense touched on the difference between state in the political sense and country in the general sense, political or not. Equating ROC which is the name of a state with island country is not supported, although you may be able to argue that ROC controls the island country of Taiwan including minor islands.
The lede already defines Taiwan as a country, which was the RfC consensus. To Remsense’s point, there is a distinction between country and state, and the article is already about the country. So, it is consistent to then extend the description to say island country.
The article is also about the modern state of the ROC, the actual territory of which is not really in dispute (at least the vast majority of it). The only dispute is one of official recognition, which is a matter of political status and also doesn’t have any bearing on the description of the island country in any case. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Equating the modern ROC with island country is just one of the different competing theories. Its territory is disputed politically within Taiwan, by China, and internationally. Wikipedia should document disagreements, not advance one interpretation in the first sentence of a major article. CurryCity (talk) 13:33, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the text in Britannica, the first difference I notice between Thailand and Taiwan is that Thailand is a country[2] but Taiwan is not[3]. It's an island, but the ROC is not an island. It's the entity that controls Taiwan etc. CurryCity (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See the 2020 RfC, as the exhaustive survey of RS has been done there already. Again, we're specifically talking about whether "island country" is acceptable in addition to "country". The other dimensions you seem to have a hankering to discuss have already been deliberated and decided on. Remsense诉14:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How am I supposed to know that? It's pretty daft to insinuate our editorial process hinges on what we assume another encyclopedia's editorial process probably is.Remsense诉14:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say, using Britannia as well-reliable source is not definite. First, Taiwan in this article or people nowadays referred to, is not just focusing on one island obviously. The context explained it quite well, “The territories controlled by the ROC consist of 168 islands with a combined area of 36,193 square kilometres. The main island of Taiwan, also known as Formosa, has an area of 35,808 square kilometres”. It’s quite clear that the concept of Taiwan here we input referring to the governing authority that currently controlled 168 island with island of Taiwan as major base. And I think for the same article in Britannia which does mean the same for the actual-ruled authority rather than focusing on one major island only. Just like Great Britain said by peoples, frequently referred to the whole UK rather than an island. Therefore, by saying that the definition of Taiwan is just “an island” apparently wrong, even for Britannia. Neither of Wikipedia nor Britannia treat it as a mere geographical topic in regards to Taiwan.
Besides, Britannia did sort Taiwan in their category for “countries of the world”, you can look into the same page again and check the headings. Sheherherhers (talk) 18:32, 17 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article currently states Taiwan is a country. It states Taiwan is officially known as the ROC. The two are not contradictory as you suggest. I don’t think you fully understand that Taiwan is both the name of the island and the ROC’s common name.
I think there is some confusion here. The name “Taiwan” can refer to an island, but it actually refers to a country in this article. The island country that we are referring to clearly applies to the latter. Adding “island” as a descriptor does not contradict the current formulation, and it is clearly a helpful descriptor if even frequent editors of the page don’t see this as an obvious fact (i.e., it is not redundant). Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The confusion is not limited to Wikipedia. Maybe a dozen of editors knows precisely that for the purpose of this article, we refer to the ROC as Taiwan. However, when outside sources write something about Taiwan as an island or a country, they can have a very different concept about the terms. This also confuses many new editors and readers.
The main topic of this article appears to be the polity ROC, referred to as Taiwan for convenience. So Taiwan here really means ROC. CurryCity (talk) 16:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, this article is about the country Taiwan. Just like every other country article, it conflates the polity and the geographical region considerably, but just like every other country article it is not actually secretly about only one of those things. Remsense诉16:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Taiwan is a common name for ROC" has been used by several editors here as a rationale to change mentions of ROC to Taiwan on thousands of articles. All of a sudden, this main article is not really about ROC? CurryCity (talk) 17:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its only about the ROC as much as it overlaps with the modern political polity of Taiwan... For the earlier period we have Republic of China (1912–1949) etc. In the modern context there is no difference between "The Republic of China is an island country" and "Taiwan is an island country" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Most sources just parrot this article "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China", or "Republic of China, the official name of Taiwan". CurryCity (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CurryCity, with due respect, would you mind answering my question below about your argument? It feels like you are jumping around quite a bit, and I would just like to understand what your concern is. Butterdiplomat (talk) 17:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just so I can properly understand your argument, are you opposed only to (1) stating “island country” in the first sentence or short description, (2) stating it anywhere in the lede, (3) implying it at all, or (4) stating Taiwan is a country at all? Butterdiplomat (talk) 01:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Should not equate or imply that ROC is an island (or a group of islands 17:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)) in wikivoice, because that is one of several political positions. CurryCity (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Before we run through the cycle again: we pick the majority view and work with it in wikivoice per WP:DUE. What are the other positions here? State them clearly.Remsense诉17:44, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You still don't get it. When outside sources write about Taiwan being an island country, they are not necessarily implying anything about ROC's territory. We have this problem because editors and articles on Wikipedia use Taiwan as a name for ROC.
WP:DUE means majority view of RS proportional to their quality, not the number of votes. Otherwise with so much content online, a point can be made about any political position. CurryCity (talk) 17:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are not saying ROC is a group of islands either. They say it controls Taiwan etc, which is how this article already explains the situation. Look at the proposal objectively, it's a major change in meaning to the first sentence of a major article despite the long-standing way things have been phrased. CurryCity (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When we state Taiwan is an island country, we're not saying anything about the ROC's territory either. Saying France is a European country doesn't say anything about the French Republic's territory in South America or the Pacific. Remsense诉17:54, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've said this before. Taiwan is generally used to stand in for ROC on Wikipedia. French overseas territory is not an analogy for "mainland territory" of Taiwan, the history and geography are completely different. CurryCity (talk) 18:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Taiwan is used to stand in for the ROC polity in the modern context, because the country and state are often conflated, as in other country articles. However, Taiwan the island country has a history that predates the ROC as well. In any case, the ROC's territories are currently in fact made of islands, and this is reflected in the primary map shown for the ROC. Any interpretation otherwise could probably be considered original research or simply unsupported by RS. Any political position that the ROC should control more or less than an island country is also not relevant. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Saying Tawian ROC is an island country in the first sentence would sound too much like Wikipedia itself supports a certain interpretation of Taiwan's status or even independence from parts of the pan-green camp, specifically the theory that "Republic of China is Taiwan", at the expense of other viewpoints on the matter. CurryCity (talk) 13:03, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In English, Republic of China and Taiwan are currently two different names for the same polity. That polity is currently an island country. If this English language fact is picked up on by this or that political campaign, that is not really relevant to this page. CMD (talk) 13:11, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thats the mainstream pan-blue POV these days as well... The view that you seem to want us to respect is a WP:FRINGE one and if it isn't you can disprove that by providing high quality reliable sources which present that POV. Besides for fringe extremists both pan-blue and pan-green camps agree that Taiwan is independent, they just disagree on what form that independence takes. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everything since 2010 is in the banners above. There was a reorganization in 2003, but I don't know if anyone has mapped out that history. CMD (talk) 22:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The idea that since the article history traces back to the Republic of China, it (currently named Taiwan) can only be about a narrow definition of what it was formerly named would be a false premise. The modern polity of the ROC is commonly known as Taiwan, and Taiwan has a history that predates the ROC. This article is about Taiwan. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying Taiwan isn't a country or island. I'm saying Wikipedia should not say or equate ROC is an island country because its exact territory is still in dispute with competing theories, and Wikipedia should not favor one by saying ROC already is (blank). That's why so many sources say ROC controls Taiwan. CurryCity (talk) 08:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are conflating the usage, though. In “the ROC controls Taiwan,” the ROC refers to the state, and Taiwan refers to the island. In a historical context, this is relevant because the ROC didn’t always control the island. But in any other usage where it is “Taiwan, officially named the ROC,” Taiwan refers to the country currently named the ROC officially.
Taiwan is a country (per 2020 RfC and subsequent discussions), and it is made of islands. That the ROC state’s territory is disputed is noted already in the article, but the factual situation has not really changed in 60+ years, and definitely not since RS started consistently using Taiwan as a stand-in for the ROC. Butterdiplomat (talk) 09:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My main point is not addressed. We can't say what kind of country the ROC is even if Formosa and other nearby or far-off islands arguably form an island country under the common name "Taiwan". The United States and several other major countries have never recognised that ROC has sovereignty over the territory of "Taiwan". The PRC and its allies do not recognise the ROC at all, state or country, and consider the territory of "Taiwan" as part of "China". People in the pan-blue camp may recognise territory beyond "Taiwan" but under ROC not PRC. While independence supporters, whose numbers are still significant, believe the ROC is a government in exile without a territory. There is no consensus in terms of kind of country the ROC is (other than what it controls, which as I've pointed out is already accurately described). Wikipedia shouldn't make something new up. The 2020 RfC never addressed this as far as I can tell. CurryCity (talk) 09:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the ROC is not the country (otherwise, your argument would extend to dispute the usage of “country” as well); it is a state that is (similar to other country articles) conflated with the country Taiwan due to the overlap in the modern context. The different interpretations and political positions about ROC’s territories are mentioned in the article and discussed in Political status of Taiwan. This article is about the country of Taiwan, which in the modern context, overlaps with the territories controlled by the state ROC. How the UN, US, political parties, and PRC interpret the ROC’s territories (political) is not relevant to what kind of country Taiwan is (factual). Butterdiplomat (talk) 10:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On a historical level just about everything you just said is wrong. I think maybe you're confused or misinformed and so what you have to say isn't meshing with what other people are saying here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:10, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your reasoning about Taiwan does not equate with ROC. What ROC fully means is in dispute. Wikipedia should not have an unsupported statement implying anything about ROC territory in the first sentence. It is disputed by the US, PRC, other countries, and members of Taiwan's own blue and green camps. Even Taiwan's own web site only refers to control, "The ROC government began exercising jurisdiction over Taiwan". Straight from the horse's mouth. CurryCity (talk) 07:02, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are different meanings to "Taiwan", and I think some of the above was also more definitive about vague words like "country" and "state" than we can be at this level. The use of "Taiwan" on this page refers to the polity of the Republic of China, although the page of course covers the island of Taiwan, the history of the area, and other relevant context as all polity pages do. There are other semantic and philosophical positions on various terms, but the use on this article is determined by the wording used by English-language sources to refer to the article topic. CMD (talk) 07:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what definitions people are trying to use, maybe they could provide it, but that is the definition used to title this article following the 2012 RM. CMD (talk) 01:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My main point is not addressed: How the UN, US, political parties, and PRC interpret the ROC’s territories (political) is not relevant to what kind of country Taiwan is (factual).Butterdiplomat (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This might help clarify the scope of the article. Instead of "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China", open with "Taiwan, a jurisdiction under the Republic of China". Other editorial decisions would then fall into place naturally. Vacosea (talk) 22:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t think that is quite consistent with the existing consensus. The fact is that Taiwan is the country, currently and officially known as the Republic of China. That is how English-language sources have referenced Taiwan and what common usage has been. Your phrasing makes Taiwan a separate entity and your description of this Taiwan is not a country, but a geographic area currently covered by Geography of Taiwan.
Just because a few people are irritated by the usage of “Taiwan” in any capacity relating to a state or country (despite RS doing so) does not mean we need to only relegate “Taiwan” to an island. Butterdiplomat (talk) 23:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, what I'm actually suggesting is something like "Taiwan, an official jurisdiction (definition 3) of the Republic of China, is an island country in East Asia". The opening right now sounds as if the article is about the Republic of China. Correctly describing the relationship makes what follows naturally refer to Taiwan only, the currently active jurisdiction and country. Again I'm not proposing any changes to the article's name or the word country. Vacosea (talk) 05:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not true according to Etymology and History sections. It's about Taiwan only and the Republic of China only if overlapping with Taiwan. Vacosea (talk) 05:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what definition of Taiwan you are using, but its use on this article refers to the Republic of China unless contextually disambiguated. CMD (talk) 06:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article is about the country of Taiwan, which overlaps with the Republic of China in the modern context in common usage. The Etymology section explains the word Taiwan’s other meanings. It is similar to China in that way. It would not make sense to say “China, an official jurisdiction of the People’s Republic of China, is a country in East Asia” - even though you could say this makes sense if the words are defined a certain way. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What the different terms mean are not as clear as they can be. It's been said that this is about ROC, not about ROC, about Taiwan, about the intersection of Taiwan and ROC. The first sentence should be more accurate and neutral than the article's title. COMMONNAME does not need to override other concerns everywhere. CurryCity (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly are the “other concerns”? We apply COMMONNAME where appropriate, but the article is about the country Taiwan in any case. Like other country articles, there is a conflation of country and current state. For example, China is both about the People’s Republic of China and the history that predates the PRC; Greece is both about the Hellenic Republic and the history prior. Laos is about the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, and so on.
There is no RS that dispute Taiwan as an island country, and as far as I can tell, any political position that challenges Taiwan/ROC as an island country also challenges it as a country in the first place - which is a FRINGE stance that is irrelevant for this discussion. Butterdiplomat (talk) 18:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
COMMONNAME is about article titles not everything else. You're saying because Taiwan is an island country, and it is the "common name" according to some Wikipedia editors, therefore ROC is also an island country, but I don't think that's supported. It sounds like WP:OR and conflating the idea of name with the idea of equivalence. Furthermore, the nature of ROC arguably even Taiwan is not a settled fact where the language of supporting RS can override everything else. It is an ongoing debate in reality, and Wikipedia should describe the different views neutrally without promoting solely one in wikivoice, especially since "ROC is Taiwan" is a DPP-centric political theory. Here is what the United States said in 2008, not a fringe stance on some settled fact but a legitimate point of view in an ongoing debate: Taiwan, or the Republic of China, is not at this point a state in the international community. The position of the United States government is that the ROC -- Republic of China -- is an issue undecided, and it has been left undecided, as you know, for many, many years.CurryCity (talk) 10:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a political theory, it's a simple observance of the English language. Taiwan, or the Republic of China, as they say. That is why the article on the ROC is titled Taiwan. The place for detailed semantic and political critiques is probably not this high-level article, but it may fit elsewhere. CMD (talk) 11:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The theory literally includes "ROC is Taiwan", while other theories disagree. None has been established as a fact, so it should not be stated in wikivoice. "Observance" of the English language is not as important in comparison. CurryCity (talk) 13:14, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Observing use of the English language is vitally important to the writing here, as it relates to the meaning of the language the readers use. This particular English meaning is a well-known fact, as per the source you cited. CMD (talk) 13:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The theory of “ROC is Taiwan” is not the reason this article is outlined the way it is. English language usage is. Taiwan is a country (with its various cultural and historical aspects predating whatever modern state it is conflated with) that is officially known as the Republic of China. This formulation is consistent even with the quote you yourself provided. I’d like to stress that the proposal is a simple and helpful addition of “island” to the existing “country” description that is already reflective of the consensus, so the usage of “country” is not being relitigated in this specific discussion. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain what you mean by name vs. equivalence, because it is not clear what the concerns are. Different names can refer to the same thing (Taiwan and ROC referring to the same country), and one name can refer to several things (Taiwan referring to country or island), but it is very clear in this article. The only thing being conflated, as typical of country articles, is the country and modern state.
COMMONNAME is applied to the title and as appropriate throughout the article - please explain where you think it is being misused. We don’t say North Korea (vs. DPRK) in the title and then nowhere else in the article; or Greece (vs. Hellenic Republic).
We are not “promoting” a partisan view but reflecting common usage in the English language. It is not our responsibility to avoid describing facts simply because they align with a particular partisan theory. In that same vein, your 2008 quote is irrelevant because political positions like that were fully discussed in the 2020 RfC. If anything, it demonstrates the point that different names can refer to the same thing. Butterdiplomat (talk) 11:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It has not been factually settled whether ROC is Taiwan or an island country. The US and a few other countries do not even recognise that the territory of Taiwan belongs to ROC. It is an actual debate in international politics, not just how language is used on Wikipedia. The first sentence should not promote one view in wikivoice while burying others. Some of your arguments basically boil down to this or that is "irrelevant". CurryCity (talk) 13:05, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per above, the “ROC is Taiwan” theory is not the reason we state “Taiwan, officially the Republic of China, is a country …” in the lede. Common usage in English is. “Island country”, like “country”, would not be saying what belongs to the ROC, presumably meaning what diplomatically or politically is recognized. Butterdiplomat (talk) 13:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 June 2024[edit]
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Just intend to make a suggesting change here following a major alteration to the lead article in recent. As the main island is now replaced in forefront, may I suggest to change the subsequent description of the ROC actual-ruled territory to make the article more compatible and coherent? Which is also set examples by other good Wikipedia articles such as Singapore topic. Suggested modification as follows: ...where its highly urbanized population is concentrated. The main island, along with other 167 smaller islands, consisting the territory under the ROC control, in total covering 36,193 square kilometres (13,974 square miles). ...The largest metropolitan area is formed by Taipei (the capital), New Taipei City, and Keelung. Other major cities include Kaohsiung, Taichung. Tainan, and Taoyuan.
The major alteration in question seems to be this one, switching the first paragraph from talking about the 168 islands first before focusing on the main one to the other way around. I am not understanding the intent of the first change above, why repeat a mention of the main island? As for the second change, it doesn't seem to be in the current article. The article mentions Kaohsiung became a municipality equivalent to Taipei, but Tainan is mentioned mostly in history, and the others are barely mentioned. CMD (talk) 15:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The two maps at the start of the Administrative divisions subsection are either unsourced (the first is just made by a user) or irrelevant to the section. I propose that they be removed, or if one kept, moved to a more appropriate section. For what it’s worth, the Chinese-language version of the article does not include any maps like this either. As noted in a previous discussion, the “mainland” claims are historical and covered in the historical Republic of China (1912–1949); it may make more sense to move these maps to that article. Butterdiplomat (talk) 00:05, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale..svg){kind=small}
Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 03:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Not done See the 2020 RfC. Remsense诉 16:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
![[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#/media/File:Republic_of_China_(orthographic_projection).svg){kind=link}
